Colleagues on the Couch – Dr. Ashley Zultanky Transcript

Colleagues on the Couch – Dr. Ashley Zultanky

Anthony: Hello and welcome to capes on the couch where comics get counseling.

I’m anthony sytko.

Doc Issues: And i’m dr issues

Anthony: We are very excited. We’ve been talking about this for a while and we are finally introducing a brand new sub series on the show We’ve got the normal tapes on the couch episode where we talk about a the mental health and psychiatric issues of comic book characters We have creators on the couch where we bring in comic book creators usually writers to talk about the books that they’re working on and how they Implement mental health and psyche psychiatry And psychology into their characters and now we have a brand new sub series.

This one is colleagues on the couch We we previously announced this during our robbie baldwin episode, but This is an opportunity for us to talk with other mental health professionals in the field about their work in the field What they like what they don’t like etc, etc and So we’re, we’re very excited to bring this on.

And I’m also just personally very excited because I get the opportunity for our first episode to interview someone who I have had the honor and privilege of knowing her entire life and the overwhelming majority of mine. And that would be my cousin Dr. Ashley Zultanky. Ash thanks so much for joining us.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Thank you for having me. So is this the part where we like swap embarrassing stories about each other when we were kids or

Doc Issues: Yeah, I mean i’m all in all the dirt that I could get that that’s that’s definitely in my wheelhouse. I I appreciate it What I was gonna say that’s we have too

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: much dirt on each other at this point So maybe we’ll call a truce for this.

Doc Issues: Oh, okay, because I was gonna blackmail both of you like but okay, never mind.

Anthony: Yeah, I mean doc has known you, you know, yeah Oh, well, Doc has known you almost as long as he’s known me. So yeah,

Doc Issues: that’s so creepy to say it that way.

Anthony: I mean, Doc and I have been best friends, what, 25 years at this point? Yeah. Yeah, so so the overwhelming majority of your life

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: of my life

Anthony: of

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: your life. Yes.

Anthony: Yes Yeah No no, no embarrassing stories. We’ll save that for the family get togethers

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: off camera and whatnot

Anthony: Exactly. Exactly. We’ve got a series of questions that we’re going to run down and they are somewhat comic book related or at least we’re trying to find a way to tie in comic books as as much as we can and then we’ve also got an interesting discussion that we’re going to have that ashley and I were talking about and she suggested to doc during the pre roll so Very interested in that.

But first since again, you are the first guest we’ve got kind of like our series of questions here So you’re the first one to run the gamut on some of these questions. So the first one is You know, take it easy. There’s no pressure here. I promise. It’s it’s all family literally and figuratively here

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Do I win money if I am correct?

Anthony: No At least not for me. I mean, you know, you can talk to doc maybe but Yeah, I don’t think we have the budget for that Fair enough fair enough. So the first question is very straightforward. What is your origin story meaning? What got you interested in mental health? How did you become? You Doctor, et cetera, et cetera.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: So the short answer I think is that I was always really bad at math and I never. Realized there were other career options other than psychologist, and I got too tall to be a jockey on the track. So, bad at math, I was too tall to ride horses, had to be a psychologist, what other option is there?

Sort of longer story is that I’ve always been interested in the brain, I’ve always been interested in human behavior. I’m a people-y, people-y person. Like how people work. I like how people think and helping people to excel and be better. I was previously really interested in sort of the forensic aspect of it, but along the way, I got caught up in sports psychology. So I’m also a sport psychologist for performance person. I have had the really, really wonderful opportunity to work with some amazing neuropsychologists and amazing clinical psychologists. So I do a lot of neuropsych work as well. And yeah, so I’ve just kind of been really fortunate to have some stellar opportunities to work with some brilliant minds and learn about people and do some fun stuff. So my origin story is a little bit of an uphill climb, right? I, grad school was rough, but you know, we got through it and yeah, so. Here we are.

Anthony: Here you are, the doctor in the family. Yep, that’s it still kind of blows my mind, you know, it’s just, again, not in a bad way, I’m not saying that to be, I’m not saying that to be hateful.

Doc Issues: Yeah, we, but here’s the thing, and Anthony always does this like, and it’s interesting over the decades, it’s like gone, like, the pendulum just swings so wide. You’re a jurist doctor, I know most people don’t consider attorneys to be doctors, but still man, you know. Something,

chill

Anthony: it. A graduate level degree.

If I was an LLM, if I had the LLM, that would be like doctor level. Okay. The Juris doctorate is a graduate level degree.

Doc Issues: Okay. Okay.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: So, so you’re like a master of law and not a doctor of law.

Doc Issues: Interesting.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: You master the law, you don’t doctor it.

Anthony: Fair enough.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Fair enough. Whereas we doctor, we doctor the brains.

Right. So, you know, that works.

Anthony: Either way, I’m sure Nana and Poppy are very happy. We got a doctor in the family. We got a lawyer in the family. They’re, they’re looking down. They’re, they’re very happy.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: We need a millionaire in the family to make Nana really happy.

Anthony: Yes, well, and, and, and Poppy

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: too.

Anthony: Billionaire.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah.

Anthony: Millionaire, billionaire, somebody. Yeah, that was, that was Poppy’s wish, man. Just, you know, all those get rich quick schemes never seemed to work out and somebody had to bankroll Nana and all her trips to Atlantic city. That sounds like a sitcom.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: It is. It

Anthony: really, it really was doc. It it, it honestly could have been, and frankly should have been.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Some cameos from my therapy dog in training also, I apologize, he is quite new. So, this is Colt, my therapy Doberman in training. So, he’ll be hopping in periodically.

Anthony: Hi mom, what you doing?

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Pretty much.

Anthony: What are you doing? Who are you talking to? Do you have any food?

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: My clients like him, because he is pretty dopey. I thought my first question was gonna be Batman versus Superman, so I’m thrown off.

Anthony: No, no, no. We, we we’re gonna avoid those types of questions. Okay. For, for this episode. So the second question then is what is your superpower? Meaning, what is your strengths? What is your focus as a mental health professional? What do you feel that you do?

Maybe not necessarily better than everybody else, but out of all of your skills and everything that you bring to the table as a mental health professional, what is the thing that you feel that you do the best?

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: I think I’m really good on the fly. I think that I am really adaptable or adaptive. I try to be as adaptive as possible as a psychologist and I, a lot of my work I’m an acceptance commitment therapist or trained therapist.

So a lot of my work is based in metaphor and, and experiential exercises. And so a lot of what I do is on the fly metaphors that help people relate to their day to day life. And so I think kind of getting to know someone and kind of getting that understanding of how they will relate to something and then using that through sort of through the course of treatment is probably and then also maybe some of my humor kind of lightening the mood.

But yeah, definitely my metaphor skill I think is pretty good. It’s

Anthony: it’s funny and and I do appreciate that you bring up adaptability or you know, adaptiveness, whatever because I feel like that is such an underrated skill to have across a variety of professions, certainly not just mental health, but definitely when dealing with so many patients who bring the gamut of issues to you on a daily basis.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah.

Anthony: It, it’s really something that, you know, must be commended. I don’t know, you know, I suppose I can throw this question open to both of you. How much of that is, is taught or referenced in your, your training as a mental health professional and how much of that is something that you just have to bring inherently as part of your personality?

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah, you want me to go first? You want to talk?

Doc Issues: I’ll go first on one hand I will say because the format that Psychiatrists go through we go through medical school first and medical school is incredibly regimented, but you definitely have to know how to think on your feet and adapt on the fly because The way I like to say it is Pathology doesn’t read textbooks, so it doesn’t matter how much knowledge you have, it’s how you’re going to apply it to each situation.

And so, yes, there is definitely adaptability and, mental flexibility and honestly, emotional flexibility, because at least in my realm, I’m dealing with a lot of patients that don’t want to talk to me and don’t want to address some of the things that have been brought to the attention of our team. So just establishing the fact that whatever I’m walking into, I’m going to make the best of it and hopefully this person is willing to meet me at a certain level.

I, I do think that I’ll put it this way. If you didn’t have it before training, you certainly develop a lot of it during training. If you have a natural proclivity to it, then you’re, you’re probably going to have a simpler time. But. Yeah, it’s a necessity.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think a lot of what I do is I try to look underneath the pathology, right?

I go through the DSM because I have to, but a lot of, Psychologists in my, you know, in the field are starting to shift away from it a little bit. And that’s,

Doc Issues: oh, believe me, if it weren’t for insurance companies that would have been out a long time ago on my end.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah, agreed. And you know, a lot of my clients come to me and they’re like, I have This diagnosis, who am I, what am I, and I’m like, yeah, but like, you’re a person too, and I’m a person, and half of the, the stuff that we work on is, is really like helping them get grounded back into who they are as a person, helping them navigate.

Challenging adjustments through life, helping them navigate difficult choices, different difficult experiences. And it’s, you know, it’s really cool to just get to relate to people on, you know, a human level. And I think one of the most profound experiences related to this is In grad school, one of my first clients, I, I really treasured working with him.

He was like, well, you sit in that chair and I sit in this chair. And so, you know, there’s a difference between us. And I was like, get up, get up. And I made him switch chairs with me. And I was like, all right, Now you’re in my chair, and I’m in your chair. What’s different about us? And he was like, oh, alright, well, that just pooh poohed that argument a little bit.

And that ability to be flexible, and yeah, a lot of it’s training, and a lot of it’s kind of who you are, and some, some people got it in spades, and others have to work for it. You know, I think that makes it the science of behavior, right? Science of human behavior and animal behavior.

And so, yeah, I think it’s, there’s a lot to it, which is kind of fun. But I think the other thing too, is that I. I relate really well to clients at times, not all, not all of my clients, but some of them I feel like I can relate to really well. I’m pretty open about my own executive dysfunction and I have a lot of clients who really appreciate that.

And so I say to them, I don’t tell you anything that I haven’t tried myself, whether it’s worked for me or not. I don’t bring my stuff into the therapy room, but sometimes you gotta, sometimes you have to be relatable and sometimes you have to talk to people in a way that makes you feel like a person too.

Anthony: Well, we certainly have no shortage of discussions about executive functioning issues on, on this show. I am quite open about. All of my myriad issues of executive function or dysfunction and, and you know, long time listeners know all the social media posts I would love to make on about the show and things of that nature, but I have to wait for the brain chemistry to line up.

Doc Issues: Right. I mean, don’t get me wrong. It’s not like it’s all on. On Anthony, I’m, how many times has Anthony said like, and Doc is going to write a post about this. So I’m like, yeah, about that, you know, or, or any, or any of the number of times something has come up and I’m like, all right, distraction with work.

I got to, do something different now. What, so be it, but yeah, it’s, it’s all about just humans being humans. Yeah,

Anthony: you know, and just about that, that vulnerability. And I think it, you have to walk a line, certainly both of you as, as professionals have to walk that line of presenting yourself as human and fallible and flawed and whatever to elicit some of that honesty from the client, but not so much so that you either project your own flaws and insecurities and such onto them, or that you put yourself in a position where you open up and become too vulnerable and then you allow the client to take advantage of that. And so, you know, again, I just, I really admire what you and people of mental health professionals go through on a regular basis of trying to give just little bits and pieces here and there and you know, certainly it develops over the course of you know relationships and Ashley I’m sure you maybe find this a little you know, maybe a little easier given that you have More recurring clients than doc does given his his station and the nature of his job, you know, he’s kind of seeing folks like once maybe twice You know in the inpatient unit and then that’s it.

Whereas you have, you know recurring clients that you see over you know several weeks or months or whatever the case may be and so You know, this isn’t really on the list But how do you find where to strike that balance of what to bring? How much of yourself to bring? You into the session and how much to leave outside the door.

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah. So counter transference is really big in our fields. And that’s basically you bringing your stuff to the door and saying, all right, therapist needs to be therapized. And I try not to do that. I’m usually really good about doing that. I’m pretty open about my own work, not necessarily to my clients, but in life I’m open.

I have a therapist myself and I think everybody should have a therapist. I’m very biased in that, but I love her. I think she’s phenomenal. As a colleague, because she is also a psychologist and as my colleague. My psychologist, you know, I, I find such fulfillment in the work that we do. And there have been times in session where I’m like, Hey, let’s pause for a second.

Cause I’m feeling it. Right. I’m feeling the emotion here and I’m noticing stuff coming up for me too. And let’s explore that. Or I’ve had a couple of clients that bring a tear to my eye and I’m like, Hey, I’m feeling the moment here. Right. Like, let’s. Let’s feel this moment together and what’s going on.

And, you know, I think that you have to really look at your own stuff before you sit down in front of a client and you have to make sure that you’re in this for the right reasons, because a lot of people in this field are just looking to fix themselves and learn more about their own stuff or their own history.

And that’s great. You have a great opportunity for that, but you’ve got to be able to put that aside for a minute. And there are people, there are populations that I won’t be able to work with because of that, right? And there are experiences that I, as a psychologist, won’t have because of my own stuff that I’m like, can’t put that aside for, you know, it’s hard.

But, you know, I’ve worked with people that I disagree with. I work with people that interpersonally, I’m not super fond of. You know, I’m sure they weren’t fond of me either. I’m sure. But yeah, you have to be present enough to put that stuff aside for that 45 minutes. And then you can go and have a piece of chocolate or, you know, scream into a pillow or be like, man, I don’t look forward to that session every week.

And thankfully, those are very few and far between for me. But I, I really enjoy all the clients that I work with. So if anyone sees this, I really enjoy all the work that I do with my clients currently. But yeah.

Anthony: Some of my clients are a real pain in the ass. Not you though. You’re great. If you’re watching this, you’re one of the good ones.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: But no, there, you know, people in our field, we, we get that sense of dread, like, Oh man, this person, I got to work with them. And sometimes we got to put that to the side and sometimes we’ve got to bring it up in session and that’s uncomfortable too.

So being able to sit with your own discomfort. I do that a lot with my clients too. And I, I, I’m very open, like, about my metaphors that I use for everything. But one of them is I, my anxiety, because I’m human and I experience anxiety as does everybody else. So my anxiety looks like. a sea urchin. It’s a black sea urchin.

It’s about this big and it’s spiky and it lives in my torso right here. So when I feel it, I’m like, oh, there’s my sea urchin. Okay. And I take it out and I look at it and I notice it and I put it down to the side and I, you know, and so then I say, okay, what does yours look like? Cause it might not be a sea urchin.

It might be Something else, right? I have a kid who just told me that it theirs is a horseshoe crab, and I was like, awesome, aquatic, I like it, so let’s stick with that. And I said, it’s perfect, because on the outside it’s solid and pretty cool looking, and underneath it’s got a little, like, face, a little, like, tooth, and, right?

So it’s, like, creepy underneath, and so that’s kind of our anxiety. So, you know, long winded answer, sorry, always.

Doc Issues: That’s okay. I’m sorry. No, we appreciate it.

Anthony: No, I appreciate the honesty, and I appreciate Doc not completely freaking out about arthropods.

Doc Issues: I, now see, that is an example of something that I processed many, many years ago, and I don’t have that nearly as bad as I used to, or at all, you know?

I’m actually the designated person now to remove spiders, like, at work. That’s how far I’ve come. So, but that’s a great, but that’s a great example. No, I’m just saying that’s, that actually is a great example of things. And for me, when it comes to counter transference, not so much, especially in my current position, not so much any one patient, although that does happen to me sometimes, I get the Gestalt, like just, milieu feel like I can go to certain units and even before I even interact with a person, I can say, oh, wow, this is an intense time.

Something’s going down. I don’t know if something’s about to happen or something just happened, but all right. Let me just find some staff, let’s talk and, you know, I want to find out what’s going on for the day. And usually they’ll tell me exactly what just happened. Like, all right, all right. That explains that feeling.

And cool. I’m glad, I’m glad I was able to process that with someone and let’s keep it moving. And that’s the part, especially, I’m seeing people in, like, real crisis moments, most difficult points in their life, and all of that, so it doesn’t come across to me in terms of How I’m feeling about them as much as much more of, you know, what am I going to do in this moment that’s going to

find some sort of, of benefit to either deescalate if it’s actually a, you know, intense situation emotionally or, If a person’s not in touch with reality, getting them to the point where they understand we’re going to intervene to make sure that they Don’t have to feel the way they do now so that they can have a better quality of life in the future So, you know, that’s that’s Yeah, and I I gotta admit I really appreciate that metaphor that you use as someone who, I’ll say to people, I’ll say, okay, I’m definitely having a somatic experience with this and that tells me that it’s at a level that I know I need to process a different way.

And that’s when I’ll, not, Not in the immediacy of seeing a patient, but at some point soon after, I know I have to just walk away and then it’s go to my office, which I’m privileged to have off the unit and either do some burpees or do something physical because that’s how, that’s how my body processes that level of anxiety.

And when I’m able to do that, I’m able to, to return. So, no, I, I really appreciate that.

Anthony: Yeah, movement is, is so helpful. I mean, you know, it’s just, it’s. The subject of so many studies that that movement helps the dopamine and, you know, people exercise, get dopamine and dopamine makes you happy and happy people don’t kill their husbands.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah, I use that way more than I think is appropriate. In my line of work and I’m like, I hope you know legally blonde. They’re like, oh, okay

Anthony: No, I mean for for me and i’ve spoken all the time that that running for me is therapeutic that I will just go on a On a very long run and I will leave the headphones At home, I won’t listen to music.

I have my phone with me just in case, you know, heaven forbid something happens but i’ll just go on a long run and it just gives my my brain the opportunity to Think about that And by the time I’m done, I’m exhausted certainly, but it gives me just such freedom. And so that, that movement just, just really helps.

So I like how everybody kind of has their, their physical way of dealing with, with their anxiety and, and all the stuff that, that they’ve got going on inside. So pivoting then to the next question you know, we, we talked about what is your superpower? What is your kryptonite?

And this is your, your biggest complaint about the current mental health system, or what is an issue, what is something that you struggle with, you know, on a regular basis, professionally, you know, speaking?

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah, yeah. Honestly? I would say it’s the DSM. I would say it’s putting people into categories. I think that there was a time and a space where it was really the way that we did things and now I think it’s really, at times, I limiting at best, problematic at worst.

And I have a lot of clients who, especially a lot of clients who feel like they don’t fit into the boxes and they’re like, yeah, but this is my lived experience. And I’m like, Hey, listen, if it’s your lived experience, I’m not taking that book over what you’re experiencing. Right. I get it. I think it’s a great.

Reference. And something I tell my clients a lot when they’re like stuck on it is if we think about the mechanisms of change, we’re looking for avoidance. What is, what is it that you’re avoiding? What is happening in your life that is causing you such distress? And so sometimes putting you in that box of it’s anxiety or it’s ADHD or it’s autism spectrum, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada.

I don’t know that that’s doing enough, right? So I think there’s more to people and I think that we’re, we’re so dynamic. So yeah, I, I gripe about that a lot to pretty much anyone who will listen. Most people who are not in the field and their eyes kind of glass over after a minute or two and they’re like, what are we talking about again?

And I’m like, no, you have to pay attention. This is very important. So yeah, I would say it’s my frustration with sort of the, Reliance on and the rigidity of the DSM and, and how we’re kind of boxed into that system.

Anthony: Yeah, I can definitely, well, let’s go to Doc who absolutely loves the, the DSM and worships it and talks about it all the time on the show. How much he can’t live without it.

Doc Issues: Yeah. It’s funny because even when you think organically, anybody that has listened to the start of the show to now I’m sure have.

Obtuse to notice that I will reference it for sure if there’s something that’s really clear saying like, all right this is the constellation of symptoms that this person is Exhibiting based on what’s written or based on my observations from seeing many many many people but The actual number of times i’ve referenced it has dwindled over the course of the past several years and that was not even intentional it was just simply because I realized when we Our format is we always do three issues, but it’s like okay, give me three topics to talk about It’s not even necessarily saying like oh, this is the diagnosis for this person based on that Isn’t even the point anymore.

It’s more like, okay, what can we learn about this about this person? What can we do to help them? How does this relate to real life? That’s that’s the most important stuff. Ironically, I think This is oh boy. You want to talk hot takes when When i’m dealing with stuff in the hospital I think our emergency room doctors do a better job with what needs to go in a patient’s chart than what You We as psychiatrists and our social workers do with our inpatients and what I mean by that is When a person is coming to our unit ER doc says suicidality insurance companies hate that And yet that’s the whole point.

It’s like this person wants to end their life What are we doing to make sure they stay alive? That really is the main point or the person is you know, or or it says psychosis like okay, this person is you know, once again, not Appearing to process reality the way that we are, we want to make sure that we can find some common ground.

That is the most important thing. If I say schizophrenia versus schizoaffective disorder versus bipolar disorder with psychotic features versus major depression with psychotic features versus medical delirium from from a medical condition all that stuff. It’s like, okay That’s all the background.

Let’s deal with what we’re supposed to be dealing with in the moment. And, and, and that part, I think, unfortunately has become this like gray zone that, that especially as a psychiatrist, that’s what we’ve been pigeonholed into. And, and I’m going to take one step further. I actually think the DSM as a whole could be the greatest resource in mental health if it had a different format.

And what I mean by that is rather than. Diagnoses based on, you know, a certain constellation of random symptoms that a few people that consider themselves to be experts agreed on to give it a label if it were biologically based. Meaning, okay, if you have a certain number of a certain number of tests that indicate some sort of inflammation in the brain along with functional MRI imaging that shows that these certain areas light up, in addition to your You know, previous traumatic experiences that led to such and such.

Like, if we actually did all of those areas and put that together and gave those things names, I think it would be amazing. We have not gotten there yet, and so let’s stop pretending we have.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: We ride at dawn, Doc. We ride at dawn. Speaking my language. And I think honestly, I, and I do, I mean, one year I got the DSM for my birthday.

That was my, it came out in May and I was like, and I was super pumped in grad school, but I, I genuinely think that there are so many opportunities for it to be, like you said, used as a reference. And I think that’s really important. I think where we get led astray is that we’re not looking at. Anything beyond it.

And I don’t think like they say it’s a living breathing document, but it’s not catching up to what we are as people, right? Who we are and how we’re presenting. And I just don’t, I don’t know. I don’t think that It tells the whole story and, you know, I, I think, and again, all of those diagnoses that you ran off, I know everyone, right?

And I was trained to know everyone. And I can tell the difference, even if I do need to consult my DSMs, multiple, all of them. But, You know, this is also the book that said homosexuality was a disorder. Yeah And being a woman means you’re crazy. So, you know, we’re hysterical, right? And yes I think that it has come a long way.

I think it will continue to come a long way. I also Yeah, I I don’t want it to be the end all be all and I honestly in my practice. You know Diagnostically, I think you know, there are Reasons to do that and I think some people come in without wanting or needing a diagnosis and I think then that’s a conversation to have as well, you know, because it’s, you know, not everyone wants to be labeled and some people rely too heavily on that label and then it, you know, we kind of navigate those situations too.

So Yeah,

Doc Issues: yeah,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: long story short

Anthony: listen, You know, I don’t know how much you’ve listened to the show over the past six years, but we are certainly no strangers to tangents both related and not and and I think certainly These are all very very much You know related to to the topic. So Honestly, i’m just kind of sitting back and letting the two of you go and that’s that’s I I know you know, I I can kind of take over things and and Be a bit, unnecessarily loquacious.

No at times. Yeah. I know it’s a real real shock because But i’m i’m loving this because i’m just sitting back and i’m watching two people who Are a obviously, you know, very good at what they do and be that I I respect and appreciate and value your your Experiences and your education everything like that and i’m just sitting back and just i’m i’m just I’m a fan of just this conversation.

Like I, I don’t even need to be here. The two of you could just go and I’ll just be like,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: mental gymnastics.

Anthony: No, it’s, it’s, it’s beautiful. You know, my best friend and my cousin just talking, talking shop and, and doing it well. And I’m just like, wow, I, I love and appreciate both of you.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: It’s also fun to get to speak the language with someone who is in the field in a different capacity, right?

Like, I used to have a lot of interaction with psychiatrists, and neurologists, and epileptologists, and the work I used to do in hospitals, and that’s something I miss. I loved that part of it. I loved the collaboration. I loved hearing it from the medical side of things. And, you know, unfortunately, in private practice, there is some.

I’m not going to say that there’s not, but it’s not the Grand rounds. It’s not the, you know, the team kind of coming together. And that’s something that I always found to be really fun and interesting and awesome learning opportunities. So,

Doc Issues: yeah. And I have to admit over time, especially since I’ve, I’ve done so much hospital work, I, I used to do outpatient, like private practice for a while.

And I, you know, there are definitely parts of it that I miss and the longitudinal nature of it. And there are times where I just, especially patients that don’t come back, I’m like, okay, in a way, that’s a good thing, but I still don’t get the closure of like, oh, come on.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah, it happens. Yeah, I think about that a lot.

Like, where is this person that I saw once five years ago for a neuropsych? Like, how are they doing? Yeah, that’s a bad part of it, I think.

Anthony: Well, bad in the sense that, you know, I’m certainly not going to speak on behalf of mental health professionals, but I would say, you know, I think it’s bad if you get caught up in it, but I think that’s, that’s just the human nature of it, you have these interactions with people.

I know this happens with Doc all the time, certainly, more so than, you, Ashley, that Doc, especially seeing people. Really in moments of crisis, like, like they’re pretty much at their lowest. And again, not to discredit anybody that certainly comes into your office and that you talk to, but just by the nature of the business and the nature of the jobs.

And so I think it’s only human that when you, when you interact with these people, you know, day in, day out, that you get these cases that are going to affect you. And Ashley, you were talking earlier about how, sometimes you’re, you’re, Talking to these clients and they say something that brings a tear to your eye where you have an emotional reaction and it hits you on that human level.

And I think it’s only natural to at least think about and, and wonder like, well, what are they doing now? You know, I hope that, that they’re getting the help that they need. I hope that they continue to, to go on this, you know, journey of discovery and, and learning about themselves, et cetera, et cetera. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with that.

I think, where it could be potentially problematic is if you continue to seek that out and you’re like, let me stalk this former patient or a client, you know, let me look them up on social media or whatever, you know, check to see, I’m going to check Zillow and see if, if they sold their house recently, like whatever that might be, that might be a bit of a problem, but wondering, you know, oh gosh, I hope this,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: sorry, there are so many, I don’t know if they’re, I don’t know who, There are people who do that in terms of like looking their clients up on social media.

That is like a very hard boundary that I have always kept for myself that I do not. They find me, I actually had, so embarrassing, oh my god, I had one client, sweet, very sweet Adolescent. And mom was like, Oh yeah, we found you on YouTube riding your horse. And I was like, I’m sorry, you did what? And they were like, yeah, we Googled your name and we found your YouTube.

I had to upload a video of me riding my horse for an online show. Oh wow. Found it. And I was like, Oh my God. Okay, well let’s separate that I swear i’m really good at my job. So yeah, sometimes it’s like boundaries crossing with the internet and stuff and You know, we learn not to be facebook friends with any of our clients or you

Anthony: know Yes, I agree that certainly that that crosses the line I think find them finding a video of you riding a horse is certainly not the the worst thing they could find It’s not like oh, yeah, I saw this instagram video you boy you were, you know Passed out in the back of a club or you know, you were

Doc Issues: None of that

Anthony: And any you know, I mean I think about that, you know from As far as you know, my my potential return to politics and stuff like that I’m, like is there anything out there that could that could damage me?

Anything gonna come back and bite me in the ass. I don’t know

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Anyone to the highest bidder if they want me to share those I will for a price A good price though not like good

Doc Issues: and we’re back to blackmail. All right.

Anthony: Thanks. Thanks kid. Thank you. Appreciate that I appreciate that so, so much. Yeah.

Yeah. So the next the next question is, what is your lantern oath? If you’re not familiar with the Green Lanterns, they recite the oath while they’re charging their, their power ring against their enemy. Their battery. What is do you have a mantra or a phrase or a thing That keeps you from burning out and that recharges you

It can be the dogs. I understand.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Well, I was gonna say it’s my emotional support Clydesdale. And she is my like You know, burnout meter. But no, I think the biggest thing for me in terms of like my mantra is Do no harm and you know, we know the end of that statement. I was told it’s pg 13 so I will keep it off the record but when I feel that like when i’m all right, do no harm Obviously is my you know top priority, but then kind of the secondary half of that for me is let go of whatever else, right?

So whatever else is coming to me I’ve had to do a lot of mindfulness work since 2011 when I started grad school, and a lot of it was training for me and a lot of it was therapeutic for me. So letting go, I think, is the biggest thing. It’s just You know, taking everything in stride, letting it roll off your back.

And that’s been tough. Anthony can attest to this. I had quite an anger streak as a human.

Anthony: So pleasant and happy child all the time.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah, I should pay you to say nice things about me. But yeah, I think, you know, letting go of, you know, whatever comes up and not holding on to that stuff that eats you up inside. Professionally and personally

Anthony: and you you really are, you know a very different person and it’s to your credit I’m, not saying that again in a bad way, but you have you’ve grown and matured so much over, you know the your lifetime i’m not gonna divulge the age.

But you know over over your lifetime the ashley that I you know That I knew way back when and then the Ashley that I didn’t know as, as well as I probably could have, or should have and the Ashley that you are now. And it’s, it’s you know, it’s a real testament to your growth and again, maturity and your experiences and stuff like that.

And again, you know, so, so proud of you to see, who you are and who you’ve become and I’ll text you my Venmo after the episode. So, you know, this way you know, I, I get my. Get my money.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Your hourly rate is higher than mine. You’re a lawyer.

Anthony: This is true. This is true. So how, how long was I saying nice things about you for?

So let me, let me break down the info.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: You said 15 hours, right? Jeez.

Anthony: Listen, I don’t bill anything less than a 10th of an hour. So if I say five words, you’re getting billed for six minutes.

Doc Issues: I was going to say, yeah, the standard is six minutes. I know, I know that from working with a few attorneys.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: It’s, it’s incredibly like I’m in the wrong field for that.

Ooh.

Anthony: Don’t go to law school. You or anybody else who’s listening. Just just don’t do it.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: I let my clients i’m like, all right, we have 45 minutes, but let’s talk you’re like you want you’re on a roll great Let’s break through

Anthony: Yeah, yeah, i’m always running up against the clock with with my therapist and you know We normally have our sessions at nine o’clock nine a. m On thursdays and i’ll look at the clock and it’s like 9:53 And it’s like well I’m just going to stop here because I know if I keep talking, we’re going to get into a whole other thing. And I don’t want to, you know, and there have been times where it’s like 9 57 and I’m like, okay, you got to go.

I’m going to, I’m going to stop now. I will let you go. Cause. Yeah, we,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: we meet with our therapists at the same time,

Anthony: 9am on Thursdays,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: 9am, I’m every other Thursday, but yes, 9am on Thursday. Okay.

Anthony: All right. That’s, that’s pretty funny. All right.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Therapy. I’m telling you, everyone who’s like listening to this or whatever.

Therapy’s great, man. There’s nothing, no stigma. It’s awesome.

Anthony: Reach. That’s literally why we started the show is to, to you know, reduce or eliminate the stigma around mental health. So if you’ve been listening to us for six years, congratulations. You’ve been in therapy for at least a part of that time.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: You’re a psychologist. You just gotta defend that dissertation, baby. You’re almost there. Seven years as a doctorate, so.

Anthony: Fair enough. I don’t know. I don’t know that I could qualify, you know, putting that on my, on my CV as, you know, like the, the work experience. Like, you know, what was your thesis? Oh, I hosted 200 episodes of a podcast on, on mental health.

You know, talking about superheroes. So, you know, can I get the degree now? I mean, hell if it saves me, you know, the extra student loan debt that I don’t have to worry about. I’ll certainly take that six days a week and twice on Sundays. So Next question. What is your greatest nemesis? And this is not not necessarily a person but a A thing that remains an ongoing problem or, or challenge.

And it’s a little different from, from the kryptonite.

Doc Issues: Right. It doesn’t, it doesn’t have to be like professional or whatever. It could just be like, you know, just something personal or whatever. You know?

Anthony: And like, cause I always talk about my depression is my nemesis that, you know, it’s, it’s my joker, like I’ll, I’ll battle it and it’s gone away for a while and you know, I, I make the analogy that the joker is in Arkham.

And then inevitably he breaks out and then Batman has to fight him and he’s got to put him back in Arkham and deal with him again. So when when my depression flares up I go, all right, that’s that’s my recurring nemesis,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: right? Finally a superhero reference that I understand. Thank you. You know, I only know batman.

It’s the only superhero

Anthony: We did we did mention that in in the text when she was like Doc when I was like, yes, you want to come on the show and she’s like I really only know Batman, can we talk about him? And I was like, well, this isn’t really that kind of an episode plan, but I like

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Batman, that’s the only one I know.

I would say my procrastination is definitely my nemesis. I get the So I’ve learned through work with my own executive dysfunction that I do this thing which I think of it as, like, the executive freeze, Doc. The executive freeze. As Doc

Anthony: Turtles in his chair covering up.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Let me ask you this, Doc. You tell me.

When I’m working on something, let’s say it’s a neuropsych eval or a report of some sort, I will have the laptop sitting in front of me and in my brain, I will write the report, but my head never moves. I am, I am that. And so then I’m like, I’m exhausted. I just wrote this whole report, but nothing is done.

Right.

Doc Issues: And then nothing actually happens.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Nothing actually happens. And so I’m like, Ah, and again, this is kind of touching back to being able to relate to my clients. When I’ve got teenagers, I’ve got high school kids, college students, adults in the workforce, and they’re like, I just keep working and nothing’s getting done.

And I’m like, hell yeah, brother, I get it. Preach. I can appreciate that. And I It’s kept me I think in school and professionally, it has kept me from learning as much as I can, which is really upsetting. I want to be able to learn as much as humanly possible, be able to like really just be super well versed.

I, I know, again, I’m fortunate to know so many amazing psychologists who not only do they have the knowledge, but they can convey it. And sometimes I’m, ah, I don’t, I don’t speak. Like that, right. And that might be where then I’m like, okay, let me go back to the basics and, you know, kind of learn and whatever, but, but then I get to the procrastination piece and then I feel stuck, right.

And so that’s been kind of my nemesis. So yeah. Doc partied too over here.

Doc Issues: Huh. You know, it’s, it’s fascinating and it’s partly why I think, and Anthony has heard me vent about my job so many times. But I also realize the reason why I’m in that environment in the first place is because the immediacy of everything that needs to be done allows me to be productive because every quote unquote deadline is something like, it’s always a, like, I have to do this now.

And there were times where going back to like the whole DSM problematic system, there were times I was like, Oh, do I have ADHD? And every time, whether it’s. Self self assessed whether it’s a professional assessing me or anything like they’re like, are you freaking kidding me? No, you seem to have no issues with that whatsoever.

You just don’t get your stuff done. It’s like

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: What do you think that is like

Doc Issues: dang? You know like It’s just it’s just incredibly it’s incredibly frustrating and then i’ll admit It’s gotten to the point where I give myself the feedback of doing things with for example with checklists or or or other False senses of security that I will write down things that i’ve already done just so that I can cross them off the list Yes And it gives

Anthony: oh, yeah, brother

Doc Issues: But but if I don’t do that Then it doesn’t give me the sense that okay I’ve already got the flywheel going and now I can continue with the next thing so as long as i’m doing one thing in that moment and Continuing with it and actually keeping my mind on that particular thing saying There is nothing else for at least for the next 15 minutes that i’m going to do then Hey, I will accomplish this and once I do it, it’s like okay My entire day is shot because I just Did all of that intentionally.

And now when I move on to the next thing, I think to myself, oh, that’s, that’s not nearly as immediate .

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Have you read the one thing?

Doc Issues: Yes, of course. Gary. Yeah. By Keller and Papa. Yeah. I, I, I know,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: so my, my director and I talk about that all the time, and he does the success. I can’t say that. And so honestly, that is, I, I share that with my clients all the time.

Like write it down. It doesn’t matter. Get up, write it down. Check. I got up. Right. I went to the bathroom. Check. I ate something. Check. You’ve done three things today. What else can you accomplish? You’re a superhero, right? Like, Hey, see what I did there. So when we’re thinking about it, it’s just, you know, some days and then some days you’re like on and it’s, what can’t I do?

And then other day is I think maybe I’ve blinked once in this hour. Can’t remember though. And so, yeah, that’s, that’s huge struggle personally, professionally, you name it. Yeah. So, yeah, we’re

Anthony: just you know, we’re just, we’re just, Calling everybody, out here by all of our names hey,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: I mean if you can’t own it, right?

Anthony: Oh, no, I own it. I own it How many times how many times doc if i’ve been on this show where doc says something? And he finishes and i’m like take my name out of your mouth I will reach through the computer and slap you. Oh the number

Doc Issues: of times help me Yeah, well the number of times I’ve as I am talking about something guys I realize i’m Talking about myself.

Anthony: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, you you call yourself out on your stuff. I call myself out on myself all the time Yeah, you know if we’re talking about a character i’m like they’re doing this I do this I don’t have the superpowers, but I’m still doing the same stuff that they’re doing. So I suppose it’s worse for me that I don’t at least get the benefit of the powers.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah, that’s why I work with so many people who have ADHD and executive dysfunction because I can speak their language. They get it. I get it. I can talk to them. I don’t judge them for it. And you know that it works. So you gotta be able to speak, speak on what you know.

Anthony: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I’ve tried the Pomodoro thing and, you know, yeah, Pomodoro technique is, I had it on, on my last I had it on my Fitbit I have to find, I’m sure there’s an app somewhere for my new Garmin that will, that will, you know, let me, let me do that.

But yeah, that, that, that feeling of, all right, I’m doing the thing. I say, I’m going to do the thing. I’m going to go ahead and do the thing. And it could be a small thing, but at the end of it, you’re like, and I need to lay down and take a nap. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah,

Anthony: because I because I did 15 minutes of like solid straight focusing And it has sucked all the life out of me like a vampire I’m, just like a like a husk just like a shell of a person and I need to recharge Yeah,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: another thing i’ve learned too and this is definitely something that I, I joke with a lot of my clients and I say, I am physics.

Okay, I am physics. A Dr. Zultanky in motion stays in motion and is productive. A Dr. Zultanky who sits down is never getting anything done again. Until And so that is my Physics law, right? That is the law I have to abide by. Proven.

Anthony: All the time. The problem is I have a desk job. I can’t, I, so it’s, you know, it’s very difficult for me to get a walking treadmill.

I suppose. Yeah. But the problem is for me. Is I’m chained to the desk. Meanwhile, I know there’s all stuff going on in the house that needs Cleaning that needs to get done chores that need to get done. I have to exercise I have to do x y and z I gotta do laundry like it’s it’s there’s been times where literally Laundry is the only thing that gets me up and out of the chair is Because i’m just i’m chained to my desk.

I no longer have a commute but I’m still chained to a desk. So, yeah, it sucks at it’s, it’s draining on a number of ways. So the last question that we have and boy, we’re just, we’re really going here is Last question is kind of a fun one. What is your legacy or super team? Who are the people who inspire you, who are a part of your sphere of influence, or whom you yourself have mentored?

So what is your, your Justice League, your Avengers, your, your team?

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Ooh, that’s a good one.

Anthony: Doc came up with that one. That was a doc.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: That’s a tough one. So I’ll look at this from a professional standpoint. Mainly because, you know, my family had to drag me across the finish line of grad school. So they know who, who they are.

Literally. kicking and screaming at times, like, no, I quit. I’m going to join the circus. But professionally, I would say that my, my mentors or the people that I really look up to thinking about it from like a, You know, kind of a rock star psychologist perspective first. Steve Hayes, the GOAT, Robin Walser.

I adore her. I fangirled so hard all over her during a workshop and I was like, Hi, I love you so much. And she was like, Okay, thank you. You’re so nice. I’m sorry. Weird. She’s just brilliant. And I love her. Kelly, you know, Kelly Wilson is another one. He’s just dynamite and Kevin Polk and Phil Tanaglia.

I think those are like kind of my people that I reference quite often. So I just genuinely love the work that they put out. I keep looking over at my bookshelf to like, see if I’m forgetting any names, but really like the, the, the rockstar psychologists in the act community, I think have been really wonderful.

Humans. And, you know, I think my boss, my current boss, has, you know, sort of nurtured me into the professional that I am today. He took a, a very scarred, And somewhat broken young doctor of psychology and helped me turn into a psychologist, which I’m always really grateful for. And I say to him all the time, like, you’re so nice.

You’re such a nice boss. Which is really great. You know, if you don’t have a nice boss out there, people go get one. They’re awesome. Even when you mess up, they’re really nice to you and that’s really nice. So I would say yeah, definitely him. And then, in terms of my legacy, like what I’m leaving behind.

Like or who I’m leaving behind. I have one young professional that I was her I was one of her adjunct professors when I was teaching, and she’s, She was a delight. I absolutely think the world of her as a student and as a person, and she’s sort of come back in and out of my life occasionally to ask me for references, and I’m like happy to give her those glowing reviews to everyone because she was just such a wonderful person.

And so like, I had a small role in her life and in her professional journey, and, you know, I, I love that I got to do that, but hopefully other psychologists or grad school, you know, young professionals, whatever eventually I’ll get to a place where people know what I’m doing and You know are willing to listen to me talk.

So Hopefully but yeah, I think having people that you can look to You know psychologists wise or professionally. That you can like reference their work or that you can actually You know pick their brains has really just been such a cool opportunity for me.

Anthony: That’s that’s awesome. And and you know It’s a great question, not just obviously by virtue of the fact that it kind of forces you know, people to, to think about that stuff, but also you know, I’m a big believer in, in giving people their flowers, like while they’re alive and trying to make sure that, that you express your appreciation and your thanks to them regularly.

And so I think that just, it’s a really cool opportunity for for people to say like, these are the people who got me here. You know, and this is like they made me Who I am and, and what I do and et cetera, et cetera. So I think that’s just a, you know, it’s a really great question.

And, and, you know, again, full credit to Doc for being the one to come up with it. So now, now that we kind of ran through all the questions that, that we had planned. Now, Ashley is going to not necessarily take over the discussion, but When we were kind of organizing all of this, she said, Hey, what do you know about the ACT matrix?

And I was like, I dunno, Jack about it. Did we do? But I, I, I know less than nothing. And I matrix, to me, I’m thinking either like dodging bullets or I’m thinking like, you know, optimist, prime reaching into his chest and you know. Presenting light to everyone. So that’s, that’s what I think of when I think of Matrix.

And

Doc Issues: in our outpatient service, I am aware of it through some of our, our our counselors. So, I mean, yeah, so I’m, I’m, I’ll be honest. I’m aware of it. I can’t say like, Oh, I know everything about it. So I’m like, I’m like, this is cool.

Anthony: This is a great opportunity. So, yeah. So, so Ashley. Please by all means, go first off, explain what is Yes.

The act matrix. So

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: yes, I’ll give you the spiel that I give all of my clients. And you almost took my joke, which I was gonna be mad at you for, but similarly to Lasagna on Christmas Eve, I get the corner. I’m first, I get the corner. So do not take my joke

Anthony: here. And, and I, as someone who has spent, several dozen Christmas eves with this, with this woman, do not take the corner.

Of the lasagna she gets she gets the first piece. That’s that’s it.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: I don’t care if it’s the first piece I don’t have to be first in line. I just need everyone to know that is the corner they because it’s the crunchy burnt edge and That’s the best part man. Okay. So this is the act matrix and then I always say Not Keanu’s matrix and then I pause and I go And no one laughs and I get really upset about it.

So

Anthony: I know kung fu

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Like come on. It’s yeah Hopefully you guys can see this well without me having my Laptop go skyrocketing off this desk. So this is a A method of conceptualizing behavior experiences that I use. It is not, it is not mine. It is Kevin Polk and Phil Tanaglias, and they are really wonderful professionals.

They have a Crowdcast that they use that Goes through this all the time. I’ve been on an episode once. It was really cool. They’re they’re wonderful. So when I introduce this, right, this is the, this is the matrix. So we’ve got our four quadrants here. So everything that takes place below this line, below this center line here takes place internally.

Okay. So I write inside. Oh, and I, I pulled a bunch of markers here and switching out a bunch, sorry. Because I always have to find the, that might not be a good color. So I write inside. Can you see that?

Anthony: Yep. Yeah. And, and just for, for the audio listeners, Ashley’s kind of drawn, you know, on a, on a large, rectangular whiteboard.

She’s drawn basically, a giant cross, creating four quadrants. So in The lower right quadrant, is written inside.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Well, so that, sorry, hold on, let me recall this. So that’s meant to be under here. Like,

Doc Issues: yeah, like right in the middle underneath.

Okay, sorry, so in the middle.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah. In the middle

Anthony: of the vertical axis.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yes, thank you. I don’t do math, so. So, up here, everything above this line in these top two quadrants takes place externally in the, in the real world. Okay, so I’d write outside.

Doc Issues: So

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: you can think about it, you know, kind of whatever words you want to use internally, externally, inside, outside, you know, whatever.

Moving in this direction, But we’re moving toward satisfaction. Okay, so i’m gonna write it here for the sake of space

Doc Issues: Yeah, so along the middle line, Horizontally on the right hand side is going towards satisfaction

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: going toward satisfaction

Okay, and then moving in this direction to the left of that center line We’re moving away and we’re seeking relief Okay, so to recap Everything below the center line is internal or inside. Everything above that center line is outside or external. Everything to the right is satisfaction. Everything to the left is relief or seeking relief.

Okay, so then we’ve got our big circle here and in here is, we’ll cover this at the end, but this is our us noticing. Okay, so

Anthony: so this is she’s she’s drawing a big circle at the center where the two axes meet.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yes Thank you. So then in this quadrant, the lower right quadrant, I always start here and I draw a big heart and I say, okay, tell me what is it that you care about? What matters to you? What are your chosen values? And so if you guys want to use a Super person a hero of sorts. We can kind of run through, you know, what it would look like That might be kind of fun for people.

Sorry might be kind of fun. All right So who would you like to use? I

Anthony: mean I can Talk about captain america. I do it.

Doc Issues: I knew you were gonna use captain america. Yes. I mean go for it. Yes

Anthony: Okay, so so captain america cares about steve rogers cares about Liberty, he cares about equality and equity. He cares about U.

S, you know americans and I mean I was gonna say freedom, but that’s that’s liberty. He cares about The ability, the American dream, essentially, you know, upward mobility so I think that, that does it again, you know, we’re trying to be somewhat concise here with, with time. I like how you, you wrote America.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah.

America.

Who, who does he care about besides America and Americans? Who does he care about?

Anthony: Who does he care about? His friends his, his colleagues you know, Sharon Carter Bucky, the other Avengers you know, teammates. So that’s, yeah, friends, colleagues, Avengers, teammates.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Okay. Anyone else? Any other, you got any family?

I mean,

yeah,

Anthony: he, yeah, he, he was an only child and his parents are obviously long dead.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: But he knew them, right? He cared about them at some point. Well, yes. Okay.

Anthony: I’m just kind of operating, you know, present day As it is.

All right, i’m not going to get into the whole, you know Son that he you know, yeah locked it in the alternate dimension with zola and all that. Yeah. I’m not going to get into that

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: I don’t know

Anthony: I’ve kind of been forgotten about

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: This is where all the things go over my head now. This is the time. Okay, so roughly speaking I, I.

Values. I, I try to explore that. One of the questions that I ask is, let’s say, and this would be for Captain America, or for anyone that wants to do this. You don’t have to be a psychologist to do this. You can do this for yourself. If, if all the people you cared about were in a room. Talking about you, right?

So let’s say it was your retirement party, right? Birthday party, some sort of celebration in your honor. What would you want them to say about you, right? So Ashley is so blank. Ashley is this. Ashley is that. And so those are typically the values that we have for ourselves, right? Or what do you look for in a partner?

What do you look for in a spouse? You know, those kinds of things. Honesty, loyalty, integrity, yada, yada, right? So all of that kind of thing. So we go through all the values, right? So we’ve got Captain America here, and then we scooch on over to this lower, laptop, this lower left quadrant. And over here, I draw the very technical term, watch out Anthony, it’s gonna blow your mind,

yucky thoughts. So the yucky thoughts. These are all of the things that we get caught on. All of the hooked thoughts that we have.

So, everything that we value, everything that we care about. Spoiler alert. We sometimes feel badly about it. So if I care about being a good friend, well, if I make some choice or decision that upsets my friend, now I have some guilt feelings about it. Now I have some negative thoughts about it. If I have a value of health and wellness, and then I do things that are the opposite of health and wellness, then I have some negative thoughts about myself and my experiences.

What are some of the things that we would look at Captain America and say, okay, here are his yucky thoughts or stinking thinking?

Anthony: I would say for Steve, it would probably be constantly having to fight. You know, he always feels like he can’t ever escape the war. There’s obviously the whole life that he he could have had had he not been frozen Like

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: regrets you mean?

Yeah, yeah regrets and and things that

Anthony: may just missed opportunities and things that he missed out on By by virtue of being frozen in the ice

60 years or however long it is with the sliding timeline. The conflicts that he has with some of the teammates and friends. We were just talking about the Civil War, you know, and everything that, that happened there meeting the comic book event, not the U. S. Civil War

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: wait, he didn’t fight in the actual Civil

Anthony: War.

He’s old, but not that old.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Not that old. I got some conflicts. Mm-Hmm. , what else? Yes,

Anthony: I, again, I think, we’ll kind of just for the sake of time. We’ll, we’ll truncate it there.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Cool. So we’ve got, so what I would then do is take some of these things and I would really expand on it. What were the thoughts?

Right. I am. Not good enough, or I am not strong enough, or the guilt, the regret, the fear, the anger, anxiety, the anger, all of, or I said anger, all of these different emotions that we feel. Then we pop up here to The outside, right? So, so now we’re up here and this quadrant focuses on the negative behaviors that we engage in to avoid the yucky thoughts, the negative thinking patterns.

So for some people that might be substance use, risky behaviors, shutting down, getting angry. So what are Captain America’s? Negative behaviors that he uses.

Doc Issues: It’s an interesting question.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: I know. Poster boy of good, but like what does he do? And sometimes I always say, sometimes the positive behaviors and the negative behaviors can be the same. It just comes down to context. Right. So for example, if health and wellness, wellness is your value exercise, spoiler alert, we’ll go up here, but.

If you have an eating disorder, right, or eating, then overexercising would go over here because you’re using it as an avoidance feature or a coping mechanism.

Doc Issues: Yeah, and actually I’ll, I’ll jump in. I don’t get me wrong. Anthony knows CAP way more than I do. And yet I will say. Not just in the comics, but also they’ve used this in the MCU as well.

There’s a part of him. And if you want to call this part of the American way, because we’re such individualists he can be a bit of a rebel and he can sometimes. Lash out just for the sake of like just testing it like not even saying that you’re wrong. As a matter of fact, one of his most famous speeches during Civil War that when he talks to Spider Man, and he just points out that the rest of the world sometimes says that, you know, you need to move.

You can stand your ground. Your job is

Anthony: to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and say no you move which Which can be fantastic or can be used to your point to justify some really horrible behavior And say I don’t care, you know, the rest of the world is doing this i’m going to do this just It’s oppositional defiance.

Not that I know a thing about that at all. Damn ADHD. So yeah, so so rebel and I would say also related to the the conflicts sometimes he may be a little too quick to fight. Because it’s what he knows it’s what he’s trained and he’s obviously very good at it, but he’s not always The quickest diplomat. He’s very diplomatic and he is very reasonable.

But, and I would say also some of this is depending on the writer, that he’s a little quick to jump to the punchy punchy.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Sure. Shoots first, ask questions later kind of guy. Punches first.

Anthony: Maybe not, not to that degree, but he’ll definitely, maybe not shoot first, but he’ll punch you first.

Doc Issues: And

Anthony: then when you’re down, go, all right, you’re good.

Now we can, now can we talk?

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: That feels like a Batman thing.

Doc Issues: Stay down. Oh, there’s, there’s been, there’s been plenty of, you know, analogous stuff with Batman and they’ve done crossovers. It’s yeah. Yeah.

Anthony: I love, I love the, the Batman versus Captain America and the DC versus Marvel, where they basically stand.

They, they square up, they, they make a little bit of positioning moves and they go, all right, listen, we could, we could fight for hours or we could stop now before a punch is thrown and go after who the real enemy is. So it was, it was a beautiful subversion of the whole, like, yeah, let’s fight before we team up against the real enemy.

Doc Issues: Yeah, the

Anthony: real enemy, you know because they’re both obviously expert, hand to hand combatants and I did pre order the dc versus marvel omnibus that’s coming out. Oh my goodness. Okay

Doc Issues: Oh god Let’s go let’s let’s go

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: I

Doc Issues: would

Anthony: say some of it may be Related to the the punching also, sometimes he can be a little preachy

Doc Issues: Because

Anthony: okay. Yes He is in many ways and is considered by a lot of a lot of his his cohort to be a You know to have the moral high ground on a majority of of issues

Doc Issues: Yeah,

Anthony: but it can also come across as I’m Captain America, I’m Steve Rogers, I know what’s right, so you’re gonna sit here and listen while I tell you is right, what you should and shouldn’t do.

Again, depending on the writer, it can sometimes come across as a little preachy. As we saw with Civil War, where some of that stuff was very ham fisted.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Okay. So last quadrant then I know it’s a revolving, I don’t move people around this much, but usually, but for the sake of the recording, so the last quadrant over here is the behaviors that we engage in that are directly consistent with our values.

Okay, and then we’re going to chat about this for a few minutes afterward But so what are the things that captain america does? To consistently connect to his values in the outside world in his behavior

Anthony: Well, he is constantly supporting His friends and teammates in whatever form that needs to take, whether it is, you know, fighting to defend them literally or just, showing support for them in, in other ways fighting for the freedom of Americans and defending America and it’s, it’s citizens and also just defending You know, to pull in a quote from, you know, another great leader, Optimus Prime, freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

And Cap will definitely Stand in defense of that, even if you’re not an American, You know that if you if you’re fighting for freedom and liberty and equality cap will be on your side

Doc Issues: And

Anthony: he will be a staunch defender of of your right even if you are not an american citizen

Doc Issues: Yeah, I think I think the word that Isn’t used in comics usually, but if we’re talking, you know, regular life advocate, that’s, that’s, yeah,

Anthony: absolutely.

He is an advocate for liberty and equality and all of those things and through words and actions is largely very consistent with that. Again, depending on the writer and, you know, sometimes for the sake of conflict, you have to create. You know, some dissonance there, but by and large, that’s who Steve Rogers is.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: So we’ve got a nice landscape, right, of who he is. So what I would do then is say, all right, we’ve got our values. I draw my arrow to our negative thoughts, right? This is all the stuff that gets in the way that we get hooked on that keeps us from living our closest to our values, right? We can never truly achieve our values.

They’re not goals. We can’t just like check them off, right? And I use the joke, you, you have the value of being a good parent. Today is Tuesday. You didn’t say, well, I was a good parent today. Check. I don’t have to do that tomorrow. I did it, right? You are a good parent every day. And this is until,

Anthony: Well, one would hope

Right, right,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: right. And, and third days where I’m

Anthony: like, listen, I, I parented all day. I don’t wanna parent anymore. Right. I’m tired. I don’t wanna be a dad anymore. I just wanna be, I wanna be a kid. I wanna be taken care of. But yes, I get your point.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: I’m in a coccoon. But we do, right? We continue to persist. We continue to pursue those values.

And they do change. So, it depends on where you are in your life. It depends, you know, on a joke with my, like, 12 year olds. Well, you’re not a parent yet, right? So, you don’t have the value of being a parent if they’re not a parent. Then, we grow and we develop with our values. So, we’ve got our arrow moving to our negative. And then what I do, this is kind of my favorite part, is when we think about, we’re seeking relief over here, right?

So we’re moving in this direction away from our values. So when I have, or when Captain America has, yucky thoughts, I draw, depending on what we have here, individual arrows to the negative behavior. So he’s got missed opportunities, and he’s too quick to fight, and he’s a rebel, and he’s got conflict, and you know, he’s preachy, and then I come over here and I say, okay, well, we’ve got preachy and he does this.

And, and I kind of make these connections for people. I say, wow, that looks like a negativity tornado, right. And we spiral and it looks really gnarly. And sometimes, you know, When I want to take a photo to show my clients, I don’t spiral, but so they can like, see what I wrote, but for the sake of this, yeah, this turns into a negativity spiral, right?

We can’t escape it or it’s very hard to, so. I left this part out, the noticing, the middle circle over here that says you noticing or me noticing. And the reason for that is it touches all the quadrants, right? This is where psychological flexibility lives. This is the, this is the consistent ability that a person has to step in and out of each quadrant of their existence.

When they’re in this negativity space, you can choose to stay here or And you can choose to step into any of the other quadrants that you have. And that allows you to notice what’s coming up for you, right? And so then that gives you the space to tackle some of these problems that you’re having. So often when we have our values, we really care about them.

We feel all the negativity because, you know, it’s hard to care about stuff, right? And so then we act out. But we want to live over here. We want to live here. We can’t do that though. I mean we can, but not consistently 100 percent of the time. So, we’ve got our arrow moving from the values to the negative space, but rather than getting sucked into this vortex of our negativity, instead what we do is Go through the psychological flexibility to the upper right hand quadrant, which is our behavior that directly connects us to our values.

So now it’s a triangle instead of a sharp left that ends up in this nasty spiral that we just can’t get out of, you know? And so the work then becomes this arrow going from the yucky thoughts To the upper right hand quadrant of the positive value consistent, committed action type behavior that directly puts you in line with your values.

So Captain America is a really good example of that because Although he gets caught here sometimes, he’s able to reconnect and reestablish that connection between, well, I’m not a good enough super guy, I suck, I’m the worst super guy, but wait, and, and, I can have those thoughts, and I can be flexible and still advocate.

I can still defend America. I can still be supportive to my friends while thinking that I’m not The best super guy. And then that allows me to be connected to my values that I really care about. You know, so. It’s a little bit of a delicate balance and a dance. But it allows us to be realistic with where we are and what’s happening in our day to day.

And, you know, I, I do this with clients at the beginning of our work together. I try to do it. Every so often just to kind of touch base and check in on where they are. And I’ve done this myself. I encourage people to, you know, if you are interested in the ACT matrix, please check it out. It’s really cool.

You learn a lot about yourself. You learn a lot about how you behave and how you act and what works and what, what yucky thoughts get in the way. You know,

Anthony: This is really cool. I’ve, I’ve never seen this before. And And it’s very eye opening and I like the breakdown. I think it’s very informative.

Hopefully our, our audio listeners will be able to follow along because obviously so much of this is just drawing and writing things down and we’ll post videos to social media and we’ll have pictures and things of that in the show notes so you can get an understanding of what it is that, you know, we’re talking about.

But this is, this is really cool. I, I dig this. And,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: and it’s simple, right? If we think about psychology and, you know, and psychiatry and stuff, a lot of it is like big words and, you know, really smart sounding terms and really I just drew a couple of boxes up here and I just walked you around them, right?

And it’s something that anyone can, can practice. You know. You can do it with a therapist. It’s really helpful, too, to really get that sense of what you’re doing and how well it’s working for you. We talk about workability a lot. The workability of therapy, the workability of your existence, that’s this line.

How well is this working for you? Because if it’s not, you’re here. If it is working, you’re here. So how do you vacillate between those two sides? And you will, right? Even the most perfect of our super guys, he’s gonna flip flop. So

Anthony: Kudos for using vacillate, by the way. I love that word. That’s, that’s, that’s a quarter word.

Doc Issues: You know what? You know what’s funny about this? Because we did an episode on Captain America, and while I’ll admit, I have the memory of a goldfish. So, so Which I know is a misnomer anyway, because GOLFers don’t have a memory. But. Part of it was because Captain America is such a bastion of all that’s, that’s well and good.

He pointed out some of the things that he struggles with. It’s my stuff that ends up getting in the way when I do the skit. Like literally, I’m just like, Oh, you’re going through that? That’s horrible. Oh my goodness. How can a man so good have to deal with this? The world’s not fair. And then it’s like my spiraling, you know, and him, Demonstrating how he’s able to navigate literally those quadrants better than I can.

Like, even though, even though that wasn’t the language I was using, like, I’m just thinking back, like, that’s literally what we did as, as part of the humor for the skit.

Anthony: Yeah, because you know, when we were talking about it, we’re like, how are we going to figure out how to do that? You know, like how to how to do an episode on somebody like captain america.

How could you do an episode on somebody like superman? And I think when you have those characters that are Considered the moral centers of their universes that are the big goods, you know The people like superman and captain america and to some extent, you know, somebody like spider man You know That the conflict comes not necessarily internally, but in them struggling in how to find that balance, how to save everyone.

You know, I actually just wrote on the board, you know, upper left, she wrote perfectionism. I don’t know that Steve ever really struggles with perfectionism because I think he’s, Self aware enough to understand that he’s not perfect, but he does still struggle when He’s put in a position where his some of his values are in conflict internally, and then how does he act in a way that is still congruent with what it is that he wants to do, but in so doing, he has to honor one of his values more so than the other.

And how do you deal with that? You know, it’s very similar to Superman and the whole thing that, you know, the conflict for Superman isn’t necessarily the internal one. It’s how does he save everyone? You know, how does he do that? And that’s where the struggle comes in Versus some of the other characters where it’s much more internally directed, you know at their own flaws and and You know and foibles etc, etc So

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: I think you touched on an important thing too because we can’t Balance all the plates at once, right?

I use that metaphor frequently you can’t be juggling all the plates at once and honking the horn on your nose And you know, we’re not trained seals So You have to prioritize your values. You have to be where you are. And going back to DJ Moran, who, truly a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful professional.

I, I just adore The way he conceptualizes things. One of his statements I have it written on my whiteboard. That’s next to my desk. It says, I am here now accepting the way I feel and noticing my thoughts while doing what I care about. And like, could you say it better? Right. Wow. Is that is this, I am here now accepting the way I feel and noticing my thoughts.

While doing what I care about, and I just think like we have to prioritize we can’t do everything We can’t do all of it. We struggle we feel bad about it and then We do what we can right with what we have in the book, you know, and that grace I think is a big part of it

Anthony: Grace, absolutely. We talk about that on the show all the time Is showing yourself the grace and compassion and forgiveness to understand that You are doing the best you can.

And we just talked about this not that long ago. Literally. Yeah. Like I think it was the Robbie Baldwin episode. The goal is to give a hundred percent every day, but what a hundred percent looks like is gonna be different from day to day. Mm-Hmm. that your hundred percent yesterday is not going to be your 100% today.

It could be more, it could be less. As long as it’s a hundred percent. Mm-Hmm. . That’s what matters. Yeah. And it’s showing yourself. Grace and forgiveness and not beating yourself up because you’re not meeting these Unrealistic self created expectations or those that were placed upon you From an early age and still continue to be foisted upon you and now i’m gonna stop projecting and getting into my own stuff

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Love you aunt maggie

Anthony: She knows she knows I tell my mother all the time, you know that I talk to my therapist about stuff I’m like, this is how you broke me this week.

No, I, I say, I say that with love. But yes, it is about showing yourself that grace and compassion and being able to say, it is what it is and I’m not going to fret over it and I’m just going to kind of accept the current situation and deal with whatever the fallout is later.

Or, you know, I’ll, I’ll deal with it when it comes. Because you could say that as an avoidance technique, but I choose to view it as just, you know, not, not trying to worry about things before they happen is just, you know, and, and again, showing that grace and it, it is a learning process and it’s kind of like meta in the sense that you have to, Forgive yourself for not forgiving yourself as long as you have. If, if that, if you can follow and that, and that makes sense, just the idea that, you’ve been beating yourself up and then you have to forgive yourself for beating yourself up as long as you did.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: I agree. And I think that’s, I’m going to show you guys what’s happening. I had to take a picture of my dog because look at him, like, what, what is Doberman?

I think it’s really meaningful. You know, I think it’s really meaningful to suck that way. And I think that it’s really uncomfortable to do that. And it can be really painful at times. So. Allowing yourself that experience of feeling pain, of feeling discomfort, especially I think here, here meaning today in this day and age, we are so fixated and rigid when it comes to the experience of instant gratification and immediacy of positive results and likes and follows and, you know, hearts and whatnot and the work.

Is the longevity, right? It’s that resilience. It is grit and determination. And I love Angela Duckworth does a lot of, she is like the best. And she says that resilience is the ability to persist and pursue, even knowing that the thing you’re working toward may never come to fruition, but doing it anyway.

And I mean, hello, like that is, The work of a superhero you have to persist and pursue even if you’re getting your butt kicked by

Doc Issues: Yeah,

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: some guy in spandex.

Doc Issues: Yeah process over product.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Yeah I love that.

Anthony: Yeah, that’s been one of my biggest problems because I am so goal driven and results oriented that I And almost 42 years old and I do not know how to enjoy process Even things that I enjoy doing I don’t enjoy them in the moment.

I only enjoy the result Yeah, and it has taken a lot for me and and i’m i’ve made progress but i’m still And this again, you know ties in with the whole forgiveness and stuff and i’m like I I feel like I should be further along than I am ironically in this in this process You You know, I have a chalkboard for my workout wall, and I wrote on it, Embrace the Suck.

And it’s the knowledge that the process of exercising is not always necessarily the fun part, and knowing that I’m not going to hit all my PRs. on any given day and that doing doing the work is not always going to be fun. But when I’m there, when I’m finished with my 12 hour Tough Mudder or, you know, when I, when I get through worlds later this year and I’m done with 24 hours, I’m going to look back at all the work that I did in January and February and all the months and the hard exercises that I did to get me to the point where I could survive the 24 hours or doing the, you know, the 12 hours.

And so that’s where I’m trying to do that mind shift that it’s just So so hard to to turn that ship after decades

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: I think really appreciating the moment and being present in the moment is, you know, it’s something I work on a lot with my athletes, something that I work on with myself. And it’s so easy to get caught up in the perfectionism of like, this isn’t going the way I planned it.

This isn’t right. This isn’t the way I wanted it to be. And You know, I’ve had that experience personally and professionally, and I actually have a friend, when we went to regionals for dressage this year, one of my teammates was like, yeah, in the middle of the ride, I was like, this is such a cool experience.

I get to do this with my horse and my friends, and I’m just going to do it. And we were like, What a cool opportunity for you in the moment. The rest of us were like, Ah, we’re so anxious and stressed and isn’t it? And like, are we having fun yet? But if we had just been like, Woosa, right? Like, whoa, you are doing this thing that you get to do.

Not that you’re paid to do, not that you’re forced to do. You get to do it, right? So you get to do a tough mutter. You’re not required by your job or by the laws. You get to do it. And so having people pause and slow down and have that reflection in the moment, which is hard, but reflecting in the moment of like, Angela does this really well.

Isn’t this fun? Are we having fun? She’s really good at that. She does. She really

Doc Issues: is.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: She really does. That

Doc Issues: is very true.

Anthony: Yeah, we’re talking about my sister. Yeah, yeah, she’s phenomenal and, and full credit to her for doing the work that allowed her to get to that point. Because again, it is, somewhat ironically a process in and of itself.

Doc Issues: And

Anthony: so I’m, I’m working on that. And that’s something that I’m also talking to my therapist about. See it all kind of comes full circle.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: We love a therapeutic alliance.

Anthony: Yes. Yes, we do. So. That

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: could be the name, Doc. We are the Therapeutic Alliance. Wow. When our powers combine, we will beat the DSM.

Just kidding. We’re not going to beat it. We’re just going to revamp it a little bit.

Anthony: There you go. There you go. So this has been this has been a really cool conversation. Just getting to sit and learn so much from, from someone in the field and then also just, on a personal level, I just, I feel like I understand you a little bit better now and, a little closer.

So this is really cool. So normally I would say, you know, this is where we say like, where can people find you on social media, et cetera, et cetera. And, given the, the nature of your job, I don’t know what you necessarily wanna divulge what you, what you don’t. So I would just say what is something it, to the extent that you have anything is there something you wanna promote or, or tell people about whatever the case may be.

You know, whether it’s your, your social media handles, whether it’s your, your job, whatever the, whatever it is. Now’s your opportunity to kind of peacock a little bit, if you will.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Well, thank you guys for having me. This was so much fun. I, I don’t have really any up and running professional social medias yet.

We’re working on it, but I guess you could find me on Twitter. Through my practice. I work at the behavior therapy associates. It’s a really cool private practice. There’s a bunch of really amazing psychologists BCBAs doctoral level BCBAs that work there and I try and do a lot of like talks and conferences and things like that.

So I’ll be doing more of those things down the road eventually. But yeah, I, you know, do the work guys. Like this is the, this is the fun stuff. This is the fun part about therapy. The embracing the suck is the hard part, but this is the cool part where all the connections are made and whatnot. So, you know, give it a try if you’re.

But yeah, thank you guys for having me on. This is so much fun.

Anthony: Yeah, it’s been an absolute pleasure. And so these episodes are going to be patron exclusive for a while. And then eventually they’ll hit the main feet, but we want to give our, our Patreons and our, our big supporters an opportunity to get some, some advanced stuff.

You know, just again for, for fun purposes. So. You can find all of our episodes eventually on our website, which is capesonthecouch. com. We are on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and threads at capesonthecouch. Our email address is capesonthecouch at gmail. com. If you like what you hear and you want to support the show in a way that doesn’t involve any money, you can always Leave us a rating and review on a platform that allows you to do so if you do Like really like what you’re hearing and you want to unlock some of that additional content be it early access or uncensored material Or whatever the case may be you can go to patreon.

com slash capes on the couch and subscribe You know, it helps pay for the the funding of the show and helps keep the lights on and helps give us our you know our subscription so we can continue to read the comic books and as we go out here and In year six and and we’re really kind of looking at different ways to expand our outreach and and find new ways to reach people with the show and on a larger scale the message that it presents and De stigmatization of mental health and therapy and all that wonderful stuff that we just spent the past You Hour and a half honestly talking about this.

Gosh, one of our longest episodes ever. And Yeah, thank you. As you know, i’m being serious it’s a long episode sure, but it also never felt like the a slog and it’s not like Oh god, when is she gonna shut up? Like yeah

Doc Issues: So now i’m gonna jump in because i’m gonna make this even funnier This is an this is an inside baseball kind of thing.

So before we came on anthony was like Oh, yeah, we might need a couple more questions Remember that Yeah, yep, certainly

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: did with me you thought you would need more with me to talk it was just more for the

Anthony: Colleagues on the couch and just trying to come up with the list of questions that we want to have in our pockets moving forward, you know for all the Mental health professionals that we’re going to be reaching out to.

So i’m already in communications with a couple of them so hopefully we can get them on the show. Jessica McCarthy is is i’m talking to her about it. And we certainly know no shortage of Therapists and psychiatrists and psychologists both you know through the show and and doc obviously Has a extensive rolodex.

So but thank you ashley and again, I will continue to make sure that you always get that first corner of the lasagna, Christmas Eve, that, that is your, your right. You have earned it.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: It’s my birthright.

Anthony: It is your birthright. And if Nana were still here, she would certainly make sure you would get it.

And I don’t, I don’t ever want to be in a position where I, I try to go against anything that, that Nana, Nana would want.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: People who are listening to this are going to be like, she’s like Garfield. People who don’t know what that reference is are very young.

Doc Issues: Oh my. Yes.

Yes.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: As I say it.

Anthony: Yes you’re, you’re younger than, than me and Doc, but still, you know.

Dr. Ashley Zultanky: Not by that much.

Anthony: Okay. I mean, listen, I was young and I was seven when you were born. So, so there’s a gap there. But yeah. But anyway thank you. Thank you to to dr. Ashley. So thank you for joining us and for doc issues I’m anthony sytko. Thank you for listening and we’ll see you soon.