Capes on the Couch Transcripts Issue 159 – Namor Transcript

Issue 159 – Namor Transcript

Anthony: Hello and welcome to capes on the Couch where Comics Get Counseling. I’m Anthony Sytko and I’m Dr. Issues. This is issued number 159 and with the upcoming release of Black Panther, Wakanda Forever, we are covering Namor, the Submariner. I know we had initially said we were going to be doing Mystique and Poison Ivy and then Namor.

and we had some really good interviews that came up and we wanted to get those in the queue. So we’re doing Namor and then we’ll, we’ll get to Mystique and Poison Ivy. So we just shuffled the order a little bit, but we wanted to keep Namor in this release slot, specifically because of the movie coming out.

We’ve got more plans for additional episodes coming up, and those will be again, released early on our Patreon. And speaking of our Patreon, want to give a special shout out to our newest Patreon citizen? A Mar Kareem, thank you so much for joining us, joining the the fantastic. Fans and support that we have here on this show, you can become another awesome citizen or patron, like a marre.

And go to on the couch and subscribe one, three or five bucks a month. We’ll get you additional material. Early access. Doc and I are talking about seeing Black Panther and maybe doing a little. Anthony and Doc give our reviews, our thoughts. We’ve got a lot of really cool stuff coming up for January.

Some really big stuff planned for our Patreon and specifically perhaps a live watch party of a movie in with the theme that we have coming up for our January releases. So if you’re not already subscribed to our Patreon, Check out the link, it’s in the show notes as well. Get in there and then you can join the Discord and we can have this fun conversation looking forward to a lot of stuff.

I, I did say though in the discord that I have all these great ideas and that’s the hyperactivity. Part of the ADHD is I get all these fantastic ideas and it comes down to actually time to do it, and that’s where things kind of fall to pieces.

Doc Issues: Well, the good news is we establish our own timelines for things.

We don’t have to be subjected to what other people think. That’s the beauty of having a podcast.

Anthony: Fair enough. But I just get so excited and fired up about these things, and then I don’t get a chance to pull them off. And then I feel disappointed because then I’m like, Why did I have these great ideas if I don’t have the time to do it?

And then I just end up kicking myself. It’s, that’s also anxiety, which, that’s a whole other thing. This is not gonna turn into a therapy session. Let’s talk about Namor, Namor. McKenzie is his last name, by the way. Didn’t know that until I started researching Namor McKenzie the Submariner created by Bill Everett.

Now here’s a, here’s a little bit of a fun fact. His actual debut and comics was Motion Picture Funnies Weekly, April, 1939. This was a planned comic book that was going to be issued, as you can tell by the title, weekly to movie theaters that would have various comic strips and comic characters and stories in them.

Only about a dozen or so were actually created. Movie theater owners didn’t really, And the studios, cuz you have to think this is 1939, they’re still in the vertical integration period at this point. I, I think you still had studio owned theaters at that time. Studios weren’t on board with this, so the comic book never went anywhere.

Only about, I think eight or nine copies were found in the seventies. We’re basically like Ash can copies that were like, Hey, this is the book that we’re going to make. This is the first one. This is our prototype, so to speak. Eight or nine copies were found, and that’s where we learned the true origin, or at least the first official, unofficial, whatever you wanna call it, Origin of Namor, couple months later for couple months later.

Bill Everett is working for Timely Comics and they are releasing a new book that is going to be called Marvel Comics, later known as Marvel Mystery Comics. And so Bill is tasked with providing a story for this book, and so he takes his original eight page origin story. Four Namor. Tax on a couple of additional pages and so creates a 12 page story.

And that is the first wide release, quote unquote official debut of Namor the Submariner in October, 1939. And so he is literally in the very first Marvel comic ever released by timely comics debuting alongside the human torch. Jim Hammond, not to be confused with Johnny Storm. Ka-Zar and the angel, so handful of characters that date back to 1939.

Doc Issues: I love the idea that this was a character that almost was lost to time in and of itself and was pretty much a throwaway if it weren’t for the fact that someone was desperate enough to put him in with a few other Also rans, I apologize for the tone of what I’m saying, but you’ll. The feel for just how I think about Namor as this goes on.

Anthony: Well, and I’ll address this at some point, but well screw it. I’ll address it now. Namor is, I would argue, the biggest. Marvel character name who has never been able to sustain his own title for any real length of time. There was a period in the sixties, the seventies, but that was only because there were like a handful of books at that time.

Namor has been around for almost a hundred years at this point. He’s been around for about 90 years. Can’t keep a book going for any length of. And it says something about the character. I’m not really sure what that something is. Cause I think I happen to think Namor can be a very fascinating and interesting character if handled correctly in the hands of a proper writer.

Unfortunately, it’s not always the case. It’s a long winded way of saying let’s get into the background formally.

So Nemore was born from a human father, C Captain Leonard Mackenzie, and an Atlantian Finn, ben, who was the daughter of Emperor Facor. So his unique parentage gave him both strengths and weaknesses that other Atlas did not possess.

He is pink skinned like humans, as opposed to the blue skin of more pure blood atlas, but he cannot survive in water or on land for prolonged periods of time, or it will impact his psyche. That was established later on in his publication history as opposed to in his initial origin.

But there is a lot of, shall we say, vacillating between hero, villain, anti-hero, et cetera. Throughout his history. He definitely goes through the heel face revolving door more times than the big show I would. And I know Doc is smiling cuz he’ll appreciate that reference.

Doc Issues: Oh yeah.

Anthony: So initially Namor was again, if not a full villa and at best an anti-hero or kind of a well-intentioned extremist because he was attacking Americans in the name of protecting Atlantis and the ocean.

But once World War II really got into full swing, he joined other heroes in attacking Nazis and the access powers. And then this was later fleshed out that he was a member of the Invaders alongside Captain America and Bucky and Jim Hammond and a handful of other characters. So after World War ii, he suffered an amnesic attack.

and once he recovered, he joined Professor Xavier in searching for other mutants because Namor is publicized as Marvel’s first mutant, at least in the terms of the publication history. Obviously not going back throughout the entire history of the Marvel universe as we know it, but he was the first Marvel character to be called a mutant, predating the X-Men by quite.

So Xavier attempted to repair his memories, but it didn’t go quite as planned as a lot of things with Charles often do. And this created further issues in Namor’s mind. And this combined with his unique physiology essentially gave him bipolar disorder. And this, as I said, is what led to his mood swings of manic depressive.

It’s a combination of the impact of Xavier’s. Attempts to address his mind as well as his physiology needing to be in water and land back and forth. You know, not staying in one environment for any too, not staying in any one environment for too long a time. So he was later found wandering the streets of New York as an amnesiac vagrant, and then upon learning that Atlantis was destroyed by nuclear bombs.

As a result of testing, he vowed revenge on the surface world, and this pitted him against the Fantastic four numerous times, and upon first encountering the Fantastic four, he meets one Sue Storm later Sue Richards. And you can go back and listen to our recent episode on Sue Storm. Sue Storm Richards to learn all about Namor and how he attempts several times to woo Susan away from Reid.

And Sue admits she’s attracted to Namor, but she ultimately stays loyal to her husband. And again, we touch on that as well in the Sue episode. So he ends up married twice. Unfortunately, it doesn’t really work out either time. His first wife Doma, was killed shortly after the wedding by an evil mermaid who wanted to throw a wrench into the whole proceedings.

And his second wife, Marina, who was actually a member of Alpha Flight, was driven mad, and Nemore was forced to kill her with the Ebony Blade. But she survived. And then Norman Osborne resurrected her and altered her DNA to turn her into a raging beast as part of his revenge on Namor, who then had to kill her once again.

Hashtag because comics, so in the nineties, he goes kind of eco-friendly Captain Planet mode. He searches for sunken treasures and uses the money to finance a corporation that focuses on conservation power of. So he is a member of the Illuminati and notably the only one who was opposed to sending the Hulk into space because he was the only one who said, This isn’t gonna go the way you think it is.

And when Bruce returns, not if, but when Bruce returns, he’s going to wreck. Or a buddy. And so, not surprisingly enough, when Bruce did in fact return in World War, Hulk Namor was the only one that Bruce didn’t seek vengeance upon. Yeah,

Doc Issues: I will definitely give credit for that one because it was one of those Odd man in the room moments.

And I love this. I always equate it though, to sports where people who are professionals at what they do and coaches who have been doing things for decades and all this stuff feel like they’ve seen everything, know everything. And once in a while, I’ve always thought whether they’re on the same level or not, you should have someone that’s not directly connected with a situation to point out your blind.

Just to say, Hey, you know, you might wanna call a timeout here. I know you didn’t think about it then, but, but you know, just give someone a different idea. Na, more was that guy. And as much as I’m spoiler alert going to rag on him, I, I think that was a great point in his, in his art.

Anthony: Yeah, definitely. It was reminded me of that thing on the evil overlord list, one of them is I’m going to have an eight year old review. My grand schemes and if they see any gaping plot holes or anything major flaws, that’s something that’s gonna need to be addressed before we move forward with executing the plan. This is very much that idea. I think it was a, a Marks brothers quote, Why this contract is so simple, a five year old could figure it out.

Somebody gimme a five year old. I can’t make heads or tail is. So due to his mutant abilities, he formally joins the X-Men and is one of the Phoenix five during avx. But he is the first one to be defeated and lose his Phoenix force powers. So Namor then gets killed by the squadron Supreme in retaliation for his numerous attacks on earth and other worlds.

But this is undone by time travel after the team realizes that Nemore’s murder would lead to global destruction. This is part of Civil War II and Uly. The Precog inhuman and they ultimately get a vision that after Nemore’s death, things really start to spiral downhill. So he then most recently he fights the agents of Atlas after Atlas’s, guardian dragon is stolen.

And after some battling against the agents namor and the agents come to an understanding and then team up against the king in black he is. Been considered as part of the Quiet Council on KRA Co. He’s not formally a member, but because of his mutant parentage, he does have certain rights and privileges on Kra coa.

He tends to issue them in favor of his at Lian Kin folk, but they kind of tell ’em there’ll always be a place for you on Kreo, whether you want it or not. Now we’re going to dive into the issues and the issue with Namor is born of two worlds Welcome And neither, despite the fact obviously that he is king of Atlantis, sometimes Prince, but usually king.

There’s a lot of stuff there and that mixed parentage really creates a lot of hostility, whether he’s on the surface world. Even in Atlantis where he feels personally more comfortable and he identifies closer as an at Atlantan than he does as a human. But even still, there are a not insignificant portion of at Atlantas who don’t really care for him.

Doc Issues: Yeah.

And that goes for anybody that be this a matter of race, a matter of culture. Different religions, different socioeconomic statuses. There’s, there’s a lot of possibilities where you end up with a huge disparity and there’s really no clean way to go about it in terms of what you decide to do with that information.

Obviously, as I’ve said before, everything. Genetic lottery. So there’s random chance in terms of how you were created, where you were created, et cetera, et cetera. But once it’s there, you can usually learn pretty quickly how your parents view things. And this may sound counterintuitive, but your parents themselves may not be comfortable with parts of who you are because they may.

Let’s say favored one type of culture or one race or one religion above all else, and they’ve made that decision. But that doesn’t mean that you have, and heaven forbid other people around you, let’s go ahead and just go down the race rabbit hole. They notice that you look a certain way and for some. It could be a true blend and it’s amorphous.

You don’t know exactly what their background is just by looking at them. For other people, it’s very clear that there’s, well, a skin tone difference. I’ll just go ahead and say it because amongst people within those particular groups of races, you can have different reactions within the same race. And I could get very personal on this with what I’ve seen, which boy, boy can be potentially devastating in terms of how your own social group, especially at certain ages, really decide how they’re going to see you.

Are they going to see you as someone accepted, or are they going to see you as an outcast? And how you emotionally respond to that. You can rebel, you can embrace, you can shun, you can isolate all those things. Things that I’ve seen with many patients that have described these situations to me. And then of course, how do you maintain or improve or degrade your relationship with your family?

How do they see you? These are all potential points for emotional growth, but also significant trauma. And I’m not here to say that there’s one known pattern as to how all of this goes. That’s pretty much the. This can be incredibly chaotic. And someone like Namor, especially since there’s some level of authority that goes along with this, he doesn’t get a choice in how quickly he has to respond.

And comics once again, does a great job of pointing out, Dude, you’re living in water with other blue people. That look nothing like you except for your ears and some of your physique, like you’re gonna stand out. , you really didn’t get a say in that you can pass for human amongst humans and they may say you have something a little different about you, and maybe that would make you more comfortable.

But philosophically he doesn’t. He actually prefers the Atian side. So now you have a really weird setup. Physically. Those people say you’re weird. From an intellectual standpoint, it’s like, yeah, you’re one of us. Like, well,

Can I have it both please? And no one ever really gives him an acceptable answer.

And it’s not on any one person to ever give someone an acceptable answer when it comes to their cultural and socioeconomic points in life. But it would be nice if, when these things happen to namar, He at least acknowledged that it’s happening in real time. What I think he tends to do is he focuses so heavily on how, how wonderful he’s able to fight for what he considers to be the right side.

While everybody else is saying, Dude, it sounds like it’s painful and a struggle and. It’s literally just don’t go there, . That just creates even more emotional barriers for him, in my opinion.

Anthony: Yeah, a lot of the things that you talked about doc, are issues that a lot of folks from, as we said, either mixed heritage families or biracial families can absolutely understand me as a white dude. It’s not anything I have any personal experience with, but it is something that I am aware. And with that, I don’t really feel comfortable on commenting because again, it’s just not anything that I have any personal experience with other than to say I know it exists and I can’t imagine what the folks who undergo that kind of colorism and prejudice have to deal with both internally, within their own families as well as externally from the outside world.

I know it was very much a thing in imitation of life. Which is one of my mom’s favorite movies. It’s a film I’ve watched many times growing up. There are countless stories about colorism and folks of biracial backgrounds and things of that nature. So, and we will get into that a little bit when we discuss the out of universe treatment.

But one of the things that I wanted to say is this also kind of ties into more so the third issue. So we’ll segue. To the third issue and then we’ll get back to the second one. And the third issue is his Ellery for Atlan leads to issues both with his people as well as surface dwellers because Naor is very passionate about the needs of Atlantis, and he puts that above all else.

Which naturally puts him into conflict with the surface dwellers, but it also causes him sometimes to have problems and brush up against his own people. Because there are Atlas who say, We appreciate that you’re advocating for Atlantis, but you are not entirely one of us, and you shouldn’t necessarily be the one speaking for us.

And so this gets into the whole notion. Our Atlan a monolith. I mean, I’m kind of being a little tongue in cheek here, but again, this very much ties into the real world discussions of mixed race and bi biracial individuals that we’ve been speaking about. And so I’m gonna give you an opportunity to expound upon that a little bit more.

Doc Issues: Yeah. And I feel like this is timely, but then. I think it’s timeless. There are always going to be opportunities for advocacy for an agenda within a larger social construct. I’m trying to be very careful with how I say this because I don’t want to pick out any one topic because it can be just about any topic that a person considers to be important to their wellbeing.

You mentioned the key word, their passion. It’s the idea that the emotion tied to what they consider to be important overrides either any logical or intellectual or even social benefits to looking at a different side or an alternative to what they consider to be important. So if you hold something that is an important value to you, and let’s say that you prioritize it, that’s wonderful.

In that it’ll give you a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning, motivation to get up in the morning. It allows people to connect with you because it can be a shared experience. Those are all great things. If you then take it to the level that in addition to it, bringing those values to you, you are not, I wanna distinguish.

You’re not looking to spread it to other people because you think it will bring value to them. You are trying to spread it to other people because if you don’t, then you’ll lose. You will actually think that other people that don’t share the passion with you are actually against you. It almost becomes a level of paranoia, the idea that everyone is a potential enemy, and if you don’t fight as hard as you can for what you believe in.

You are actually making the world a better place. Do you see what I’m doing? I’m catastrophizing based on my own personal values and goals and putting the emotional energy behind it that will allow me to feel justified, and I can bring that level of intellectualization to any topic that I consider to be important.

And anything that you disagree with me on is not a matter of whether or not you’re actually having a proper discourse with. It’s that you are undermining my value as a person, and if that, if someone is doing that to you, you have every justification to defend yourself in whatever manner that you see fit.

You could see how this becomes a spiral in terms of hatred, in terms of animosity, in terms of potential violence. All of those things can happen. You take a value and make it so emotionally attached without context and without others that may have a less extreme view. Or even if they, even if they do share the passion, they at least recognize that there are other shades of it, no pun intended.

So naor throughout the comics is hardcore. Atlas and about Atlantis and all of it. And the fact that he’s in a position of power allows him to push that agenda forward in a way that impacts way more people than if he were just a loan agent. I can’t imagine if I’m under that regime thinking to myself, I just want my at Atlantan children.

Grow up in a safe environment and not have to worry about outside forces influencing my life, but I’m not looking to start a war with anybody else, but my ruler feels otherwise, and now I have to make sure I don’t say anything out of line or I’m going to be his next target, even though in theory I. I’m really not trying to name, names or name countries or name, I mean, or name my own country.

I’m really making sure that people recognize this red. Yes.

Anthony: Is everyone gets what point you’re making’s. Good to understand.

Doc Issues: Yes. Oh, but my point is you can go back centuries. You don’t have to do modern times either. Like I said, it’s timely and timeless and that mindset I appreci.

People that, that love what they do and how they do it and where they come from and wanting to, wanting to make things better. Just don’t do it at the expense of intentionally making things worse for those around

Anthony: you. Put all jokes aside, you’re never going to get a leader outside of a totalitarian state who claims to be able to speak for every single one of their constituents.

But good leaders know enough to take all voices and many different factors into account when trying to come up with an agenda and find. Platform that promotes the biggest good or the the greatest good. Whether or not that works in the real world is for a separate podcast to discuss. That’s certainly not our bail w but in any event, moving to, I guess the final issue, which I, as I said, was technically second in the show notes, but it kinda worked.

Better to segue now for the third one is his unique physiology leads to bipolar disorder, or at the very least, manic depressive swings. Now, this, as we said, was not something that was created when he was established as a character, but later on, one of the writers used. Sort of as a cheat to explain why he was sometimes heroic, sometimes villainist, et cetera, et cetera.

And it’s this notion that if he spends too much time in the water or too much time on land, it impacts the oxygen levels in his body and that creates an imbalance in his brain, and that’s what leads to his behavioral swings. Now, this is something that when you and I were first establishing the podcast, we talked.

Using certain examples from comic books to say, this is realistic, this is not realistic, et cetera, et cetera. But I know that we haven’t quite gone down that path in quite some time. But there are ways to show good bipolar disorder and bad bipolar disorder. But I will let you speak more on. Physiology and the body chemistry aspect of that and how it relates to the psychology.

Doc Issues: Yeah. Don’t worry about this folks, that’s ridiculous. But I can tie it to something directly related to physiology and potential bipolar disorder, one of the biggest components of our functionality. Is the concept of sleep. It literally means that your nervous system, especially your autonomic system, is going to be on autopilot for a while, and your conscious functions are gonna be in standby mode, not really doing much, quote unquote, but very important for us to be able to function well.

What happens if you test that, and nobody do this, by the way, please don’t. What happens if you say, How much sleep do I really need? You know, like truly need, Everybody’s heard the tropes now, you know, six to eight hours, whatever. But we’ve had some people in my life, I know that I was a med student, pull all-nighters study, you know, as much as you can cramming for a test and whatnot.

Or maybe you’re a shift worker and you just went from the day shift and they ask you to do the night shift Now. You’ve heard the thing like, well, you gotta stay up because otherwise you’re, you’re gonna really be messed up in terms of when you try and sleep again,

Anthony: whatever. Or if you’re a new parent and you have a baby who decides that they don’t want to sleep all the way through the night.

Not naming names, not speaking from personal experience at all, just, you know, maybe just throwing it out there kind of idea if you know anybody like that. Right.

Doc Issues: Well, I’m. Add in a fictional tale, and I have told this to, to patients, Anthony, you may be familiar with this one. If you’ve ever heard the tale of Don Quixote. Well, early on in that book, it starts off “mucho leer e poco dormir” he loved being in the library.

He loved reading, and he would do it at the expense of actually sleeping. And Yes human beings. I’m sorry if I’m not talking to Atlantians now, but you, you can go days and days without sleeping, and what usually happens when someone does that, aside from the irritability that you would expect or the drowsiness that you would expect?

Well, for whatever reason, Maybe it has to do with the shift in our cortisol levels because we are automatically inducing more stress hormones. Maybe it has to do with the idea that we are not adjusting to our light sources, which in modern society is a problem anyway, because being exposed to natural sunlight is much less likely in urban environments especially if you live indoors with artificial lighting like we all do.

Maybe it has to do with Pure fact that our work schedules are no longer agrarian and much more industrialized to the point that you literally can do goal oriented tasks, add infin item without anything to naturally say, unlike, let’s say, an outdoor type of work where when you’re tired, you know you’re done, or when the sun’s going down to go back to the light thing.

The point is, all these factors play into the notion that you can induce a manic episode this way. It actually turns on parts of of your emotion that literally say, I have broken through and I can do anything. And it can get to the point that a person not only starts doing more tasks than they ever have before, but they start getting grandiose ideas as to what they can truly accomplish compared to what they have before.

It can get to the point that a person can create things within their. Concept of reality that most people would not be able to understand. Yes, I’m referencing possible hints of psychosis. All these things can happen purely by sleep deprivation, and this is something that has been known for quite a while and so, Whether or not a person has more than one manic episode, I know for a fact seeing in the hospital, some people point out that they went for a week without sleep because they had something work related, or they simply were using substances that impaired their ability to sleep, or they were part of a regular cycle and they just naturally don’t sleep as much.

Whatever it is. This is something that when gone unchecked or or unrecognized, can wreak havoc on a person’s. And if that’s truly what’s going on with someone like Namor, then they probably are not only unaware of the negative consequences, but they are embracing the positives of it that I just mentioned.

And it’s very hard to just intellectualize that and talk to a person in a way that they’re going to understand why it has to stop. They’re trying to keep that party going, so I can’t imagine, let’s put it all together. Imagine a person who at in many ways is ostracized from the surface world, is clearly considered different underwater, but is powerful enough that they know they can do whatever they want.

And on top of that, for whatever physiological reason, now have increased energy, perception of strength and intense motivation because of their supremely, I don’t wanna say misguided, but, intense ideas as to how the world should be. Put that all together. You may have someone that comes off a little too strong to a lot of people, much of the time to the point. That they look to avoid any contact with them. And the funny thing about it is, especially when you look at some of the Illuminati pieces or anything with the Fantastic Floor, it’s like, Holy crap, it’s Tim again, and now you’re walking this fine line.

As I’ll admit I do as a professional, where you’re trying to separate out, Okay, I want this person to have a better life, but they’re driving me to a point that I don’t like thinking this. And now I’m trying to balance out what am I doing for this person? How am I going to continue to function with them in my life while still acknowledging my own thoughts that you, when you’re like, this are the biggest jerk around

It’s not, it’s, it’s not, it’s not that great.

Anthony: Yeah, and when we spoke to Jeremy Whitley about Nadia Vandy and the Unstoppable was, we were discussing how that was a very realistic portrayal of bipolar disorder and the manic depressive mood swings, because when Nadia went full blown manic, she said, I can fix everybody.

I can solve everybody’s problems. I don’t need sleep. And her friends were pushing back and saying, This isn’t like you. Being irrational here. And so that was a bit condensed and there was some mild artistic license taken there. But overall, that was a very realistic portrayal of what it’s like to go through a manic episode.

And we really gave Jeremy a lot of credit on that. With Na more, it’s just more of the kinda like the two-face model in that we’re going to claim these back and forth. Swings are bipolar disorder and it’s the Hollywood of it without any real basis in understanding. Which I think does a disservice to folks who are actually dealing with bipolar disorder.

And that’s unfortunate to them. But you know, unfortunately these are some of the tropes that writers and creators have chosen to rely upon. Very interesting points. So we are going to take a break and when we get back, we will get into treatment. So stick around.

Anthony: Now we’re back. So treatment starting as we always do within universe and Doc. Okay. Laying on me. Okay.

Doc Issues: So we have someone with unique physiology that enjoys his time is king of Atlantis, but clearly needs to spend time with the surface dwellers. And. His environment definitely impacts his mood and how he interacts and everything.

I need to make sure that I’m safe, so it has to be secure and I wanna balance because obviously I don’t want him to be hurt, but I also don’t need him to be like totally powered up and ready to assault me with every insult. Not that I’m trying to insult him, but he’ll take it as insults. So, I guess what I’m describing is some sort of enclosure that has some water in it and, you know, maybe like a little bit of a land surface, but mostly I could interact through some sort of glass and yeah, basically I’m describing a fish tank.

I think it would be a good idea because na more clearly. Likes to feel in control and having things a little bit different. You know, making sure he has one of those like treasure chest things that has the bubbles in it once in a while and the diver and just, little plastic palm tree, make sure it’s filtered right.

Cuz you can’t use chlorine cuz he’s a living creature. So, And then, wait, Atlantis is, so it’s salt water, right? Yeah. So, Making sure. Ooh, ooh, you know what? Especially if we’re going with a bipolar diagnosis. I mean, true, it’s sodium chloride, but, but in that case, if we can get aqueous lithium that way, it’s just absorbed that might be more effective.


Anthony: No. Anybody.

That may be one of the most out there treatment options in universe I’ve ever heard.

Doc Issues: Or maybe I’m just being a jerk towards NA more because I’m tired of him being a jerk to everybody else.

Anthony: Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. That’s exactly it. All right. Not really sure how ethical that is as a medical health professional to say, Well, you’re addict to everybody else.

I’m gonna be a dick to you. I mean, it might work or, or he .

Doc Issues: I was gonna say, he probably just somehow break through and just put me in my place, but whatever.

Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. He, he can go toe to toe with the Hulk, so not really sure how well that’s gonna work. Plus he can fly. He’s got those little ankle wings, which we didn’t really get into, but anyway, out of universe.

Then Eliminating the powers. Obviously you still have the issue of mixed parentage and we did discuss it to some extent on or when we were describing the issues, but it’s not really too difficult to come up with a car, Larry, for any number of people with mixed race parentage, people who are of two vastly disparate culture.

That feel that they’re not really welcomed by people in either culture because they’re not entirely of that culture. And again, speaking as a white dude, this is well outside of my expertise, but I know it exists.

Doc Issues: So I would say, Part of the challenge in these types of cases is that not only are you trying to get the person’s perspective on what they want their relationships to be within those different cultures, but what influence either with the people that are relevant to them, family, acquaintances, work environment, et cetera, et cetera, that may be playing a factor in how they view things, but also their own interpretation.

Of what those cultures say about treatment. There are still several cultures that have a proclivity to shun the idea of a mental health diagnosis, let alone mental health treatment. So the person themselves, it can go any, it can go any number of combinations. It could be a person that didn’t want treatment, but someone else of a culture that’s more accept.

Is looking for that person to get treatment and therefore you’re dealing with a reluctant patient or you’re dealing with a patient that’s getting treatment in secret and doesn’t want anybody else of a certain group to know that they’re getting treatment or else they’ll be shunned or simply forget all the cultural things.

It’s just simply, this is a lot to deal with on both sides, and I just need an impartial referee. . Combination of those things, it’s up to the therapist to decipher which one of those takes highest priority based on what the patient is describing is causing the most turmoil for them. And to go ahead and, and make sure we, we cover all of the issues.

If someone is diagnosed formally with bipolar disorder for. Reason, whatever the initial event that led them to that, Let’s go with the physiological part, that they have noticed that it seems to happen more when they are stressed out at work and they’re sleep deprived and that puts them at risk for manic episodes, things like that.

Then we may focus more on sleep hygiene or giving a medication that can help with. We may focus more on medication where the side effect of that medication is used as a benefit and helps them sleep, even if it is for mood stabilization purposes. So there are some opportunities there to, you know, streamline the treatment, which I know is one of the things that’s said as an insult to our profession where sometimes people think that we are trying to use too many medications at once and it is something that we have to take into consider.

So all those things together. Of course while I know I always say that it’s over a long period of time that you sort of gather these things and sort them out. I will say that especially from a medication management piece, some people can get results very quickly and be incredibly grateful if not for them than for the people around them if they’re going through a manic episode.

So, it’s definitely one of those situations where we are trying to stabilize a crisis situation, and once again, I’ll, I’ll point out my bias because of my current work is in the acute care hospital setting and everything else, but even if we were talking outpatient, there may be situations where they may not require hospitalization, but still have an opportunity to get to a more stable place so that it avoids a hospital.

And then from there, start digging into some of the other factors that led to the exacerbation in the first place.

Anthony: Yeah. There are so many factors, as you said, to be taken into consideration here especially in, in this real world setting that it’s, it’s not an easy thing to try and come up with. A treatment plan without looking at the specifics.

Because again, even just looking at the cultural impacts to that point, every culture is going to receive some of those things differently. Some of these concepts differently, and so you would absolutely have to tailor the presentation and the treatment plans to those culture and those cultural factors.

That are perhaps butting up against the need for the treatment. And so you have to know your audience is essentially what it comes down to. So I don’t enge anybody that’s doing the, the hard work like that on the day in, day out. You know, that’s obviously not a, not against the folks that are doing this on the emergency level, but the people that are trying to get this treatment in the, the non-emergency settings and on the regular treatment basis.

Hats off to, to every single one of you. It is, it is Yemen’s work and again, you know, we say all the time on, on this program, and we were even just talking with Dr. Perkins about it. We just need more folks doing this work. We need more people doing this work. We need to give them more resources and help them manage the care that they’re, they’re providing better.

So there’s a lot to unpack there. It, it really truly is. So all of that being said, we’re gonna come up for air and see what happens when we get many more on Dr. Ish’s couch.

Doc Issues: Hello Namor, I’m Dr.

Anthony: CHUs. I am King Namor, ruler of Atlantis. I am not one of your colleagues. We are not fraternizing over a beverage. You will address me accordingly.

Doc Issues: My apologies. Your maje. Your Highness, your atian, majestic highness. I’m bad at this.

Anthony: I gave you one job and yet you have failed.

But luckily for you, I am a forgiving ruler. So you will get one more chance. Thank you Can name wait. You don’t rule me. That is not the point. As long as you show the proper respect and the appropriate decorum, then I have no quarrel with you

Doc Issues: very well. Then what does the mighty King of Atlantis have to gain from racing the presence of a common land dwelling human psychiatrist?

Anthony: I would’ve thought that my message was delivered ahead of time, if not, and I will be forced to punish the one that failed to deliver. Said message. And I will have them resend that message twice as fast the next time. There’s no room for error in troubling times such as these,

Doc Issues: you do that. So what was the

Anthony: message that I, albeit one of the most important figures in existence, has made his mark on the world, yet still, I find challenges that can only be mastered through the guiding hand of one with the knowledge of the mind.

You, my humble. Such a man.

Doc Issues: Thanks. So what can I help

Anthony: you with? My people have respected me for so long that I worry they no longer fear me the way that they should. There is no room for comfort when our world remains at great per on all sides,

Doc Issues: no offense, but that comes

Anthony: across a bit. You would not say such things if you had fought the battles.

We have fought to be forewarned is to be forearmed, but,

Doc Issues: But why would you want fear instead of respect? Fear is the more primal response, and that sounds beneath you.

Anthony: Fear can be harnessed. Respect is dormant. Even doc. Boy, you

Doc Issues: really have a hard edge. Do you

Anthony: ever relax? I am capable of the finest travels in leisure.

Only privy to those that would dare seek such an endeavor,

such as, I’m not going to share that with you. It is beneath a man of my stature. Two, as you say, kiss and tell.

Doc Issues: Okay. Are

Anthony: you always this obtuse? There’s no need to use such language. Remember, you’re a place amongst royalty.

Doc Issues: You don’t know what that word means, do you?

Anthony: Kingdom of Atlantis has no need for obscure vocabulary. We speak directly. We are a people of action.

Doc Issues: I,

I get that all you talk about so far is your people.

I mean that, that’s nice, but the point of individual therapy is the individual. So what do you want to change, like about yourself?

Anthony: Nothing.

Doc Issues: Then we’re done here. What’s the point?

Anthony: You once again have a misguided approach. I am saying that I value consistency, Tradit. Honor or these concepts to obtuse for you to comprehend.

Doc Issues: I think you got

lucky using that word correctly. But anyway, to summarize, you want permanent everlasting control of that which is

important to you.

Anthony: Now we are speaking the right language.

Doc Issues: As a

psychiatrist, I must inform. Na, more of the atlantians that I am in no position to make any such guarantee that our sessions will

yield that result.

Anthony: I see. You need to work on your delivery of sarcasm. It does not match any of my rivals for wit or passion.

Doc Issues: You’re used to

people talking to you that way. Did you ever think that it’s because you get under the skin of

every person you.

Anthony: A pearl is made by an ian of sand in an oyster’s mouth, and yet not every oyster produces a pearl.

My lot in life is to create more treasures of the sea. Why should I care if others are intolerant of my grit?

Doc Issues: I’m not sure. That’s a lot in life. Instead of a conscious choice,

Anthony: that is not a question.

Doc Issues: Don’t think I wanted it to be a question anyway. You’re blocking my attempts to understand your emotions, your thought process, even your values. What

do you want from me?

Anthony: Well, you haven’t attempted to throw me out of your office yet, so that tells me you are more tolerant than most plebs. Here’s a list of every goal that is relevant to my success.

Doc Issues: That’s quite

a list. The first 50 of them crossed off. You don’t need to show me.

Anthony: Then how will you know of my great achievements? I

agree. What? Nothing. Nothing. Now you name at least 20 people here, but you don’t give details. You simply have an exclamation point next to their names. Except Sue. Just Sue who? Sorry. Except Sue, where you have a heart, but there are no details at all. Like

really what’s going on?

I don’t need explanations. I know what they mean, but I don’t

Doc Issues: know what

Anthony: they mean. That is for you to decipher as we talk over the next 22 sessions, 22.

Doc Issues: Aw man. Why 22?

Anthony: I have a full calendar of every in person session and phone call that we will have so that you can’t say I’m busy at the last moment. Your online system is truly convenient.

Doc Issues: Are you trying to make up

for a lack of other attachments? By putting more energy into me,

Anthony: you should be honored. You say that like it’s a bad.

Doc Issues: 15 min, 10 minute time limit, but I’m going to need more time and only

three topics.

Anthony: You are in no position to make these kinds of demands.

Doc Issues: Plus. Plus, if you are more than five minutes late, I charge double.

Anthony: You are trying to establish barriers. I see your point, but a king never yields. You will treat me and you will know my greatness. Now if you excuse me, I have to go salvage a Barron stretch of an unknown trench that you have never heard of, but we’ll save countless ocean creatures for the sake of atlan and commerce, I’ll be sure to send you a private message when it concludes at approximately 4:00 AM your time.

Doc Issues: I look so forward to.

Anthony: Now that was a better delivery of sarcasm. Imperious Rex. Wow. He is just a jackass.

Doc Issues: Everybody has these people you interact with in life, and let me tell you, for counselors, therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, we are just as human and struggle just as much to get through those times whenever we’re seeing these people.

Just letting you know.

Anthony: I bet you have a a lot to say about dms. I mean, in your dms, .


yeah. That’s a reference. Again, only about maybe two to three people listening to the show are gonna get, but you got it and that’s what matters. So, recommended reading. As I said, there’s not a huge, there’s not a lengthy run outside of, I think like the. That Namor has a book, but I guess it was maybe about eight or so years ago.

It’s a mini series. It’s called Submariner the Depths, and it is a updated retelling of a lot of the Namor mythos and it treats Namor like this entity. I don’t wanna say like a Michael Myers sense, but it’s very much this creepy foreboding presence around the submarine because these oceanographers are discovering Atlantis, they’re surface dwellers, and they’re like, Oh, we’re, we’re out to search for Atlantis, and Namor is out to completely ruin their day.

And he’s very much, it’s, it’s almost kind of like the. Or not, not the Ben Grim. I’m talking about like the John Carpenter thing. He’s this thing that just kind of moves around the story. It’s about him, but he, he’s Jaws essentially. That’s, that’s really what I was getting at. It’s, it’s a fantastic story.

It’s creepy as all hell. This is very much a horror esque comic, so I thoroughly enjoyed it and I’m not someone. Who’s really big into horror, but just the atmosphere and the artwork and everything, the, this version of Namor is like black eyes. He’s just very different, very creepy looking. So I, I would strongly encourage you to check it out Again, not the most, I would say on brand version of Nemore I’ve ever read, but it’s a great story and for that I’m willing to.

You can bend the character a little bit to make it fit better. So upcoming episodes, again, provided there’s no additional interviews or things that pop up, you know, listen, sometimes we book interviews and it’s just like, Oh, hey, this is a great conversation. We’re just gonna stick this in the pipeline somewhere.

Things get shifted around. It happens. So upcoming episodes, Mystique and Poison Ivy, which we kind of already previously announced, and Mar McTaggart. So a lot of women. Just kind of worked out that way. So again major thank you to our, our new Patreon citizen Mark Kareem. You can check out on the couch and use subscribe, unlock some additional content.

As we said, this episode is being released to tie in with the Black Panther movie, which hopefully Doc and I will get a chance to see. And if we do get a chance to go together, we will release a Paton. Doc and Anthony’s thoughts about the movie. So I want to listen to that, subscribe, go ahead and as always, you can find all of our episodes on our website, capes on the, and you can also check out other fantastic shows in the Gonna Geek Network of which we are a proud member.

So you can head on over to Gonna and find other amazing shows like Intellectual or Sci-Fi Sunday. So we are, as I said, a proud member of the Gonna Geek Network and hopefully in the not too distant future, we’ll be live streaming these on the gonna website or You can also follow us on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok capes on the couch.

You can email us at capes on the and if you like what you hear, rate in review, if you’re on a platform that lets you do that, whether it’s Apple Podcasts or Stitcher, A couple other platforms that allow you to rate and subscribe because obviously that gets us in front of additional people.

So that’s gonna about wrap it up. So Doc, the main problem

Doc Issues: with someone like Namor is that people like that don’t really tend to understand how they affect those who remain name.

Anthony: For doc issues, I’m Anthony Sytko. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.

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